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  #41  
Old 10-30-2007, 06:30 PM
muck_nutz muck_nutz is offline
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Default Re: Benifits of the straddle

Besides the meta game issues people have raised there are a couple of other situations that can come up.

1) You can straddle to get a hand when you have missed the blinds. Assume 10-15 blinds for this example. Your options are to wait a hand, post $15 live/10 dead and get a hand, or straddle for $30 and get a hand. I think the value of an additional hand and meta game issues can make this reasonable.

2) The casino you are in allows you to skip the blinds if you go bust, you have just lost almost all of your money so you have a straddle or a bit more. Now you can buy in more in bad position, play your 2 bets, or straddle your two bets. If you go bust then you don't have to play the blinds. In this spot I think a straddle looks tilty, if you lose buy a load and come back in position and if you don't play through your blinds and buy a load on the button.
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  #42  
Old 10-31-2007, 08:35 AM
eightballa eightballa is offline
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Default Re: Benifits of the straddle

I can't see how straddling could be hugely -EV once in awhile when the stacks get big. It definetly helps your image out.
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  #43  
Old 10-31-2007, 01:48 PM
Mook Mook is offline
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Default Re: Benifits of the straddle

[ QUOTE ]
Some of the nitty replies here are only thinking of poker on a simplistic level.

All this "I don't play poker to have fun, so don't care if the game has a fun atmosphere or not. I only play to make money" is just totally the wrong way of thinking about being a winning poker player. A 'fun atmosphere' where the players are wanting to gamble allows you to make much more money than a tight, unfriendly, cut-throat game where every player is wearing sunglasses and tanking on every decision. Sometimes doing little things - like straddling - to promote 'fun' in a game will lead to your EV increasing.

I get frustrated when I see some of these young kids come and play live. They have mainly played online and they read 2+2. They think they are maximising their EV at all times, and look down their noses at other players. And they do all sorts of things which actually make the game they are playing in much less profitable. They wear sunglasses. They dwell on EVERY decision. They talk to their friends about poker at the table, using terms like 'EV' or 'fold equity'. They insist on every little technicality, like calling a string bet when a half-drunk fish does not put his chips in quite correctly. And they do all these things thinking they are maximising their profit. But by making the game less fun and more cut-throat they are actually reducing their profit.

Meanwhile, an old time pro is winning twice as much as them and has been doing so for years. He seems to get on with everyone, especially the weak players. He tries to avoid pulling people up on minor technicalities because he realises this spoils the flow of the game and antagonises the weak players. He does everything he can to prevent the game having a cut-throat atmosphere because he knows that this will reduce his profits. And he sometimes straddles.

The young internet kids may see him occasionally make the odd play that is 'technically incorrect', but he'll continue to win more in the live games than they will. One of the reasons is that he understands that a winning poker player is in the entertainment business, and that the PR stuff is really important. Live poker is not like the internet. Games have to be nurtured and fed in order to keep them as good, profitable games.

Straddling may not normally be 'profitable' in and of itself (although Mississipi straddling from the button has to be different). But it sometimes can be profitable in a variety of indirect ways: It stimulates action in future hands; It helps promote a friendly, gambling game; It encourages others to straddle; It prevents you getting an overly tight image etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I normally hate posters who quote a several-hundred-word post in its entirety just to add a sentence or two at the end, but Curry's whole response is so spot-on and so well-stated that I can't help myself.

It's really getting to be child's play to pick out the 2+2'ers / serious Internet players at the local 10-20 and 1-2NL games in AC these days. And not because they aren't accustomed to the rules or pace of B&M play (though that's often the case), but for all the reasons Curry listed above.

A significant percentage of those who haunt low-limit B&M games (I know and work with several) are people who might head to AC 3 or 4 times a year and whose only other exposure to poker is their monthly home game. They play not because they expect to win (in fact they usually see it as just another casino game where "the house always wins"), but (a) because they're generally social folks who don't mind "paying" 300 or 400 bucks to have a few hours' fun and (b) they can't make that kind of money last that long at the $25-and-up blackjack tables that seem to be the new norm on Saturday evenings.

What do you think a person in that frame of mind will think if, in his first hour at the table, his chips are migrating to someone who acts like he does this poker thing for a living? Who spends 3 minutes agonizing over every play, makes pointed references to things like "implied odds", and mumbles under their breath about equities and percentages for ten minutes after he wins a big pot? I'll tell you what he's thinking: "Meh, maybe if I try I can find a $15 blackjack table somewhere in this place to drop my money at instead."

How about if his neighbors are instead laughing, joking with each other and the dealers, and saying things like "What the [censored], I'm here to gamble!" as they slap a blind straddle onto the table? Are you telling me you can't make 2 or 3 extra BB an hour in profit at the latter table vs. the former?

I'm somewhat surprised Aaron Brown hasn't chimed in here yet and I'd encourage anyone who hasn't to read his book, in which the notion of utilizing quote-unquote "negative EV play" to hugely profitable effect features prominently.

Mook
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  #44  
Old 11-03-2007, 09:26 PM
DesertCat DesertCat is offline
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Default Re: Benifits of the straddle

[ QUOTE ]
So i decided to straddle a few times in 1/2 NL 100 max @ the majestic...

first time i did so, an mid position player raised to 15 and i looked down at 33... whats your play there?

the next 3 times i did it i got bottom of the barrel hands, i mean like the worst.

after that i decided to quit straddling and ended up having a pretty good session. still on the fence though

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 - push.
Hand 2 - raise.
Hand 3 - raise..
Hand 4 - raise...

repeat until people start playing back. Then push the next time you get a big pair or AK.

profit.
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  #45  
Old 11-03-2007, 09:33 PM
DesertCat DesertCat is offline
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Default Re: Benifits of the straddle

[ QUOTE ]
I average about 6bb/hr live. Putting 2bb into the pot on every orbit (in addition to my blinds) where I will usually fold to any raise, and play OOP in any unraised pot seems like a great way to put a serious dent in my win rate. ...


[/ QUOTE ]

If you play that level of ABC poker, yes, don't straddle. If you can't raise 72o offsuit confidently, don't straddle. If you can, profit.

[ QUOTE ]

However, I kind of like it when others straddle. I lets the pot play bigger when I have good hands. Sometimes, if the straddler likes to over-raise his straddle a lot, I can even deep limp with AA and kill the straddler when he over-raises with 77-AA/AJ+.


[/ QUOTE ]

You like it when others straddle,and feel it adds to your win rate but you won't do anything to encourage it? Why not ask the entire table to straddle? Is that -EV? Obviously not.


[ QUOTE ]

Also, metagame is overrated at most live games. The solid regulars won't be fooled. The gambling LAGs and social calling stations won't notice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even solid players will remember some of the crazy hands you raised from the straddle, esp. while they are pondering a call when you go all in with the nuts. And don't you want to encourage the gambling LAGs to gamble more? Is this the poker theory or the remedial poker forum?

[ QUOTE ]
Straddling blind isn't as good as other means of mixing up your game for "metagame" purposes vs people with whom you play regularly.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may not be in most games, but when you are in a game with three or four other bad players who will straddle if you straddle, it's ++++++++++++++EV.
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  #46  
Old 11-04-2007, 07:17 AM
Rek Rek is offline
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Default Re: Benifits of the straddle

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

However, I kind of like it when others straddle. I lets the pot play bigger when I have good hands. Sometimes, if the straddler likes to over-raise his straddle a lot, I can even deep limp with AA and kill the straddler when he over-raises with 77-AA/AJ+.


[/ QUOTE ]

You like it when others straddle,and feel it adds to your win rate but you won't do anything to encourage it? Why not ask the entire table to straddle? Is that -EV? Obviously not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I see this thread is still going. My thoughts are as above and no post here has changed that.

I like it also when people straddle because they are putting themselves in a -EV position as far as I am concerned. If I could encourage people to do this without me having to join in I would. However, everybody agreeing to straddle just nullifies any advantage.
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  #47  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:40 PM
jjflash jjflash is offline
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Default Re: Benifits of the straddle

I can think of a couple of situations where I will try to introduce a staddle to the game. I will however start out by saying that I will stop straddling if after a few orbits less than half the table is participating.

One situation is when the only game that I can get doesn't play high enough for me. In that instance, I will try to get as many people as I can to straddle just to get people used to playing for bigger pots.

I will straddle when the table is full of nits.

I will straddle when I am substantially deeper than anyone else at the table. It makes their decisions more critical.

And I will straddle when the three players to my right are rocks.

Please don't think that I am trying to say that I am correct in my thinking. I have just noticed that these things work for me. I am surely thinking in result based terms rather than "what is +EV in a certain situation". I however continue to think in result based terms until the results tell me to do different.

One other note: It is obvious that when you straddle, you will lose that hand most of the time (I am usually forced to fold my straddle to a raise). Since people that I play with think that everything you do should yield immediate results, they tend to got on a major tilt after surrendering their straddle about four orbits in a row. They don't understand that your profit comes from the loosening of the game and the pot size when you have a hand on someone elses straddle. This tilt works wonders for my bankroll.

I welcome any other thoughts on this, as I am constantly trying to improve my thinking about this game that we love.
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  #48  
Old 11-07-2007, 08:17 PM
JABoyd JABoyd is offline
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Default Re: Benifits of the straddle

I think many are forgetting 1 major benefit of a 'live' straddle...you are last to act preflop...giving you ANOTHER opportunity to raise or reraise to steal limps.
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  #49  
Old 11-07-2007, 08:30 PM
jjflash jjflash is offline
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Default Re: Benifits of the straddle

This is so true. Also, most people just can't help limping into straddled pots. They see all that money on the table and can't wait to get in there. This leaves a lot of room to pick up extra dead money in unraised straddled pots. Something that I will definately have to give some serious thought to.
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