Is This Cheating?

[Howard Beale]

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what if someone has a tell where they tap their left foot on their chair leg every time they have a big hand. you are sitting on their left and are the only person at the table who can see the tell. is it unethical to exploit this without notifying the table?

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This could go on and on:

I have a lucky card protector, a sure-fire guaranty that I'll be a winner everytime. Is it cheating if I bring it on every occasion? So far I only use it once in a while because I've felt guilty.

[arod18]

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My approach (which I think is pretty standard) is to tell the person who lets me see his cards that I can see his cards ONE time.

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Exactly.

[ScottHoward]

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My approach (which I think is pretty standard) is to tell the person who lets me see his cards that I can see his cards ONE time.

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Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]if you think its wrong, it doesnt matter how many times you tell him, its still wrong. telling him once or 100 times doesnt make it right.

[KipBond]

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My approach (which I think is pretty standard) is to tell the person who lets me see his cards that I can see his cards ONE time.

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Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]if you think its wrong, it doesnt matter how many times you tell him, its still wrong. telling him once or 100 times doesnt make it right.

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But not AS wrong as not telling him at all. What's even more important here is that the other people at the table need to know that you have a significant (unfair) advantage over them.

I'm disillusioned that so many people don't think this is cheating. It's good to know, for sure. Now I have to keep a good eye out for anyone that is cheating (in my book) by looking at someone else's cards, so I can know not to play with them. This makes the game less fun, IMO. The fact (so far) that 2/3 of the players out there may be cheating and don't think it's cheating... sucks.

[wtfsvi]

It's not cheating. You have the words cheating and unethical mixed up probably.

edit: the OP does not state if you actively do something to be able to see the hole cards. That might be cheating if you do, I don't know.

[punkass]

purely ethical way to handle:

1st - "sir, the way you handle your cards, you're showing them to me"

2nd - "dealer, the guy next to me keeps flashing me his cards"...dealer: sir, please stop flashing your cards, you won't get another warning

3rd and anytime afterwards - "dealer, he flashed me his cards", dealer: "sir, you were warned. Your hand is dead."

I don't know if the dealer should kill his hand or make him play his cards face up. This would be the 100% purely ethical way to handle, but no one really is going to go this route, would they?

[rafiki]

Man I don't even believe in warning someone. Nobody warns a hockey player to keep his head up skating across the middle of the ice. Nobody warns a QB to not throw the ball too high for the slot receiver (before the receiver gets laid out). Everybody is playing for real, and everybody is doing whatever it takes to win. If some idiot doesn't want to take responsability for his hole cards, tough luck.

[StevieG]

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Everybody is playing for real, and everybody is doing whatever it takes to win.

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The mistake in your analogy is that assumption is not true for everyone at the poker table. For some players, poker is just a a way to have fun.

As a serious, prepared player, you should love these folks, and cater to them a bit, because they represent the -EV side that balances your +EV.

Now suppose one of these fun loving players stumbles into your game, is lax about protecting his hand, and then at some point realizes what is happening, and that the player on the right is taking advantage of that, without ever telling him?

Everyone's reaction is different, but it could be that the player resents playing with cut-throats, and decides to walk.

You have enough advantage from the mistakes other people mention (chasing draws improperly, etc) that you do not need to use this angle.

By telling the clueless player about it, you may just convince that player the game is friendlier than it actually is.

[bernie]

Assuming it's accidental, no it's not. Cheating, imo, comes with intent. Like going out of your way to see his cards. But just looking over as you're watching the table and seeing them? Cheating is much too strong a word. I guess if you keep doing it and don't bring it up to the guy I can see it.

Part of live play is protecting your hand. That includes protecting them from others seeing them, not just protecting them from the muck.

To this day, I haven't seen one (still live)player ever stop a hand, postflop, to point out that another players hand was exposed to him. I have seen mentions of it preflop.

b

[bav]

It may be unethical, but I don't tell someone DURING a hand once there's significant action that I saw his cards unless it's heads-up. It's far too disruptive. The whole table comes unglued and you become a bad guy. The person who exposed his cards is mad because you saw them and mad because you said something. The other players are mad because you know something they don't. The floor comes over and gets annoyed because he has to make a tough ruling, and then the other players get mad at you and the floor because the floor says he won't make the guy expose his cards, or the player who exposed his cards gets REALLY mad at the floor and you if the floor decides to force him to reveal his cards. It's completely no-win for me.

I'm usually very altruistic, but sometimes the price is too high. Preflop before there's any serious money out there, ok. After the guy folds, ok. Heads-up, ok. But not when there's still action pending from him in a multi-way pot.