NL100, Party: Discussion about 4betting light preflop

[Aquadougs]

1. When dont you 4bet QQ+, AKx
2. What are the indicators necessary for you to 4bet light? ("he 3bets light" - but without a showdown, when can you say that? etc.)
3. What are the best cards to 4bet light, if the value of the holecards mean anything, is it any recommended rank groups ("1. AQs, JJ, 2. AQo, TT" etc.)?
4. How big are your 4bet sizes? Do you always have the same size?
5. If you have 4betted earlier in a session, how does that changes the judgment about if you are going to 4bet again ("wait about 50 hands", "not against the same guy" etc.)?
6. How do you handle a 5bet push?
7. When do you cbet after he calls, and the SPR is about 1?
8. Is a 4bet/fold mode good?
9. Do you ever 4bet push, with 100bb effective stacks and a 14bb 3bet?

[SpecT]

wow. tl,dr

one thing i will say though is i used to 4bet bluff a ton in the party 1/2 games and got away with it wayyyy more than I should of. Seems like most regs can easily widen their 3betting ranges, but don't like making adjustments to their 5bet ranges. So i would 4bet small alot then fold to a shove. Once you go up the limits it becomes less effective because good players combat this well, and can even 5bet with things like AT and 88 in spots where it looks like your 4bet bluffing.

Also small 4bet bluffs are good because it doesn't matter what cards you have (because your folding to a shove) so QJ is the same as 72o in these spots. Just make sure to size your 4bet small enough that your not getting odds to call a shove(ie. 7 -> 25 -> 54 is a good size there)

[Chaos_ult]

4bet/folding is really bad imo.

4 betting light is different though

[SpecT]

[ QUOTE ]
4bet/folding is really bad imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

so just say we raise to 54 with QJo in this example, and villain shoves, your calling there?

should we 4bet shove and massively overcommit ourselves? or 4bet to a size that forces us to call a shove, say 75 - even though it doesn't create that much more fold equity, especially vs bad regs.

4bet/folding is fine. and especially against guys who will 3bet light but won't open up their 5betting range, which I found most regs at the 200nl party games to be like this

[Chaos_ult]

[ QUOTE ]

4bet/folding is fine. and especially against guys who will 3bet light but won't open up their 5betting range, which I found most regs at the 200nl party games to be like this

[/ QUOTE ]


basically i'm going to 4-bet light with hands that have good equity vs his pushing range. How HE ADJUSTS that pushing range is what dictates my tendency to 4-bet.

Edit: and obviously things change as the game gets deeper.

[SpecT]

[ QUOTE ]
basically i'm going to 4-bet light with hands that have good equity vs his pushing range.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok so in the above example where we 4bet to 54 and he shoves, we have to put in 146 more to win 403(ill even let you have the blinds as dead money), meaning we need 36.2% equity to call a shove.

Now people at 200nl party games usually have a 5bet range of AK/QQ+, sometimes JJ, but we can even widen that range to AQ+/TT+. seems like your 4betting range here is going to be super super tight if you like money. eg ATs is only 30% v that range.

if your never 4bet/folding you basically telling the dude your 100% allin when he only has 14% of his stack invested, makes it a very easy game for him.

edit - also 4bet folding allows you to choose whatever situation you think will gain the most fold equity in. If you have to wait for both a good situation, and a good hand vs his shoving range, then your either going to be choosing sub-optimal spots or sub-optimal hands

[Chaos_ult]

[ QUOTE ]

Now people at 200nl party games usually have a 5bet range of AK/QQ+, sometimes JJ, but we can even widen that range to AQ+/TT+.



[/ QUOTE ]

those hands are only a small portion of their 3-betting/5-betting range, or at least they should be if you're 4-betting lightly imo.

[SpecT]

yes that 5betting range is a small portion of their 3betting range.

yes most regs at party 200nl have those 5betting ranges (so i would also assume party 100nl, which OP is enquiring about).

therefore yes it's insanely profitable to 4bet/bluff in those games.

/thread

edit - well end the 4bet/bluff part of the thread. im sure there's more 4betting questions OP wants answered

[Chaos_ult]

Not refuting any of that

I'm just trying to personify that 4-betting light should be a function of how much/little he adjusts his 3-betting/5 betting ranges.

[FoldEqu1ty]

Nice posts Spect