100NL: 5 Bet Shove or Call with KK?

[TwistedEcho]

shooooooooooooooove i dont remember the last time i've seen someone raise utg, 4bet then fold. Also don't want to call and make QQ fold on Axx or Kxx boards, or AK when it misses.

For everyone suggesting call, please tell me the huge range of hands you are 3betting SB v UTG and then coldcalling a 4bet OOP, since apparently you have a looser range for this line than shoving preflop.

[early325]

[ QUOTE ]
shooooooooooooooove i dont remember the last time i've seen someone raise utg, 4bet then fold. Also don't want to call and make QQ fold on Axx or Kxx boards, or AK when it misses.

For everyone suggesting call, please tell me the huge range of hands you are 3betting SB v UTG and then coldcalling a 4bet OOP, since apparently you have a looser range for this line than shoving preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

you make some good points here, my reason for calling is that i feel a lot of people can fold QQ/AK pf here, but being first to act on the flop will feel they have to shove mroe flops than they c/f (regardless of texture)

[paiz]

This is an interesting spot. TwistedEcho brings up a very good point that I didn't realize earlier: while 5-betshoving is pretty transparent, 3-bet then coldcalling doesn't hide your hand much either. Shoving also gives QQ/AK a chance to fold and AA to insta-call.

On the other hand, calling allows lesser hands to catch up, and for you to make a mistake on the flop (like folding to QQ on an A-high board with KK). While most players wouldn't shove QQ on any flop with an A, anyone that does would steal the pot from you.

Given all of this, I'm still lost. Most of the time I shove and hope he doesn't have AA, but this doesn't feel 100% right. Anyone have anymore input on this?

[yad]

twisted echo nailed it.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
5 bet shove, unless you are really LAG is always AA/KK and villains know that too. getting it in pf isnt bad but i also like calling and getting it in on any non ace flop as well stat dependent obv.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but the problem is calling his 4 bet is always AA/KK and he knows that as well. Almost a 1/3 the time an ace flops and either kills any action you would possibly get, or causes you to throw your keyboard against the wall. Its easy to say they always know your 5 bet shove is AA/KK but I always shove here, and get called by crap like AJs And AQo often enough that im no longer suprised by it. Especially if its some crappy reg because they seem to live in constant fear that people are making a move on them.

[MoP_86]

against UTG raiser im 5 betting here because they're more likely to have a hand to get it in with... if i was in some sort of battle situation like CO vs Button or B vs B or BTN vs Blind I would be more inclined to just call and get it in on the flop.