Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)

[gull]

DECEPTION.

[mvdgaag]

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<ul type="square">[*]As a semibluff to attempt to take down the blinds[*]To set up additional semibluffs when no one hits the flop.[*]To provide cover so that opponents can't assume you only raise with hands with good showdown value.[*]Possibly to build up a pot for when you hit. Note, however, that SCs play much differently than pocket pairs because you rarely flop a made monster, so it might be you instead of your opponents who gets roped in by the pot size![/list]
Now against that, you have the decreased expressed and implied odds -- expressed because you've limited the field and are getting fewer calls, implied because more is going in relative to future expectations of called bets (whether limit or big-bet, for different reasons).

So it's not a clear play. It's a better play when you're either winning a lot of pots through your flop continuation bets or at a table so tight that you routinely get no action on your premium hands. (That's not a very good table to be at, but you may as well steal with a hand that could flop big if you get called; you're not hoping to be called, however.)

Against players who get stubborn and defend against a CB with something like 44, you should raise with SCs less. In limit you should certainly bet your draws for value, because you expect to get called several ways. In NL you should just hope to get some free cards and make a big hand.

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The above. I'd like to add that you need to win around 14 times the bet preflop if you only win by making your straight/flush. So you really need to have value from the semi bluffs to make it more profitable than limping.

[kbinder]

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The idea of raising preflop with PPs and Premium hands is to induce a 3way pot or a heads up so you improve your hand's probability of winning. But with Suited Connectors, they're usually better when there are more than 3 people in a pot because your EV on it skyrockets. So why do some players like to raise like they have PP, regardless of position, with Suited Connectors?

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Not to be a nit, but remember that the EV of any hand increases when there are more people in the pot, simply because there is more money in the pot (obviously assuming hero voluntarily puts in the same amount).

You're not raising premium hands to increase the probability of winning; you're raising to increase EV.

The rate at which the EV increases for SC's is not better than the rate for other categores of hands. Consider some examples:

Example 1: AA

Hand 0: 14.796% 14.52% 00.27% { random }
Hand 1: 85.204% 84.93% 00.27% { AcAd }

In the above hand, if both players put in 1 unit all-in, then hero's EV is .85*2 - 1 = .7 units.

Now let's see what happens to the EV of AA when against 2 players:

Hand 0: 73.43% 73.69% 00.23% { AcAd }
Hand 1: 13.28% 13.01% 00.36% { random }
Hand 2: 13.28% 13.01% 00.36% { random }

Against two unknowns, Hero's EV is .73*3 -1 = 1.20 units

Finally, against 3 unknowns:

Hand 0: 63.822% 63.71% 00.23% { AcAd }
Hand 1: 12.052% 11.61% 00.47% { random }
Hand 2: 12.073% 11.63% 00.46% { random }
Hand 3: 12.052% 11.61% 00.47% { random }

Against three unknowns, Hero's EV is .63*4 - 1 = 1.55 units.

Example 2: 67s

Hand 0: 45.37% 43.21% 02.57% { 7d6d }
Hand 1: 54.63% 52.55% 02.57% { random }

Against a single random hand, your EV is .45*2 - 1 = -.1.

Hand 0: 31.92% 30.51% 01.54% { 7d6d }
Hand 1: 34.04% 32.46% 01.72% { random }
Hand 2: 34.04% 32.46% 01.72% { random }

Against two random ands, your EV increases to .3192*3 - 1 = -.04. Still unprofitable.

Hand 0: 25.06% 23.76% 01.32% { 7d6d }
Hand 1: 24.98% 23.58% 01.42% { random }
Hand 2: 24.98% 23.58% 01.42% { random }
Hand 3: 24.98% 23.58% 01.42% { random }

Against 3 random hands, your hand is BARELY profitable; EV is .0024 units.

Hand 0: 20.754% 19.54% 01.23% { 7d6d }
Hand 1: 19.811% 18.54% 01.28% { random }
Hand 2: 19.812% 18.55% 01.28% { random }
Hand 3: 19.802% 18.54% 01.27% { random }
Hand 4: 19.821% 18.55% 01.28% { random }

Against 4 random opponents, your EV is .04 units. The EV of suited connectors does not skyrocket when there are more players in the pot.

I almost included a third example showing that the rate of EV increasing is better for very speculative hands like A5 or K7, but I think I've made my point.

My post has nothing to do with the benefits of raising SC's in NLHE. Other posts have already addressed these issues more than adequately. I only wanted to point out the flaws in your initial claims about EV, especially the claim that the EV of SC's skyrockets when there are more players in the pot.

[SplawnDarts]

This is a case of using EV for the wrong things.

The reason you raise big pocket pairs is NOT because the EV goes up. It usually doesn't. 1 opponent for 2 units looks a lot like 3 or 4 opponents for 1 unit. Obviously in NL, where the raise is several uints, there might be an improvement.

But the REAL issue is one of postflop play. Opponents in multiway pots tend to look for hands bigger than 1 pair. Meanwhile, it's likely that you will have exactly one big pair the whole hand. What this means is that, by virtue of playing a multiway pot, your opponents will play more or perfectly against your one big pair. And when your opponents play perfectly, you loose out on a lot of value.

When you raise, your (often heads-up) opponent now starts trying to defend their equity in the pot with weak hands when the board looks like it missed everyone, which is a legitimate strategy but is disasterous against an overpair. In other words, if you raise your opponents natural inclination after the flop is to make mistakes, whereas if you don't their natural inclination is to play as if you had exactly what you do have.

THAT is why you raise.

[SplawnDarts]

Note that the same thinking gives opposite resuklts for SCs. People play correctly agaist your suited connectors if you DO raise by trying to take the pot with marginal hands before you hit the draw and then giving up if it doesn't work, and play incorrectly against them if you DON'T raise by giving you free cards and trying to hit dead draws to two pair and trips.

[paddymcg21]

The main reason I would raise with suited connectors is for the chance to win a very big pot against an aggressive player. For example raising with 7d 8d will either hit something good and win money or completely miss and is easy to get away from. If the flop comes 5d 6s 2d (obv this is a nice flop that wont happen too often) Your aggressive opponent is most probably not in the mood to fold to your bet on a flop that really looks about as threatening as Robbie Savage. Also if you show down your 7d 8d, players will know that your more than just a 1 trick pony and are capable of mixing it up. All this may sound obvious but surely one of the key things for any poker player is to be difficult to read. If you only play premium hands then surely you're easier to play against no??

[mvdgaag]

kbinder... your calculation is correct, but you forgot people don't call with random hands AND they don't even limp with random hands. Preflop, only the blinds have money in the pot and a true random hand.
Also your calculation is who wins if everyone goes to the river (including yourself). There can be many scary boards where you just don't know if your aces (or any other big pair) are good when multiway. You will make more mistakes according to the fundamental theorem of poker (Sklansky, NLHE theory and practice), so you will gain less than you assume.
In other words: You forget you don't win that amount of money of your opponents that fold before the river, but it is harder for you to dertermine when you can make up for this by folding yourself (in a multiway pot).

You are completely forgetting any post flop play. EV postflop is so great with suited connectors in multiway pots, because it only costs you the prelfop amount if you don't catch a draw (4 out of 5 times) but you have around 40% equity in the pot on average of you do get your draw. This equity (unlike big pairs) does not depend a lot on the amount of players in the pot, since you are drawing to a bigger hand than they are most of the time. So your profits rise almost linearly with the amount of players in the pot.

so EV = -(4/5)Preflop + (1/5)(0.4)River

Where:
Preflop = the betsize/blindsize preflop
River = the size of the pot on the river (incl. preflop)

For the River amount a pot was built by a certain amount of players. They all put in their share, but as long as you have am equity bigger than your share of the money you gain by putting in more money;

Number of players - Percentage in pot - Equity
2 50% 40%
3 33% 40%
4 25% 40%
5 20% 40%
6 17% 40%

So you are profitable post flop from 2 or more opponents, since you're equity is larger than the percentage of the money put in the pot by you. The more players, the better. I kept the equity on 40% because that is just a guess... It will probably drop a bit with more players, but I guess it would range between 50% and 35% with a 40% average.

I hope this made sense, GL

[Noo Yawk]

Reasons to raise Suited connectors:

1)Makes you harder to read

2)Gives cover for your bigger hands.(makes you harder to read)

3)When you hit a big hand with a player that will pay you off, they have a harder time putting you on a SC. Big payday. ('Cause you're harder to read)

4)People think your a donk and play back at you, causing you to make more on your big hands. ("cause your harder to read)

5)Gives you steal opportunities post flop.

I think you get the point. Just don't get carried away with it like too many people do. These are hands that you need to be a reasonably deep to play. Make sure you're aware of who is in the pot, their post flop tenedencies and stack sizes.

[gotmarc]

If you raise with suited connectors people don't respect you when you raise with aces.

Your implied odds are based upon the flop. if you have 5 6 of hearts and the flop comes 2 4 8 you have eight outs for the straight and when you hit it people will make the ultimate mistake.

IF you're in early position you'll notice that a lot of the callers check to the raiser. Often you can steal the pot with a single bet. This even makes so called break even bets profitable.

When someone check raises you or if they bet realy big after the flop--you muck your cards because you're done with them.

This is more the "recipe" answer rather than theory, but you want to make sure you don't do it all the time. Normally you want to limp in with suited connectors, but I like to raise with them in late position on occasion. if i can show the hand down cheaply i will(assuming I don't hit anything)

Most importantly I don't think you can think of hands as being in a vacuum in NLH. IT all depedns on the stacks, the players, you position and many other things. You would definitly play suited connectors differently playing people in a home game who constantly underbet the pot then you would with Doyle Brunson--

[jeffnc]

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To build a bigger pot so you can bet more when you make your hand and still get called.

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Isn't this precisely CONTRARY to the concept of implied odds, though?

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No it's not precisely contraray to the concept of implied odds. (Actually it could be, I'll get to that in a second.)

Assuming stacks are deep, then all you're doing is raising the stakes. This is not a bad idea at all if
a) you play better than your opponents post flop
b) several opponents will stay with you when you raise.

Now what you've done is basically turned your $1/2 NL game into a $5/10 NL game (or whatever) where you would have limped with this hand, but just for this one hand.

It also has the added benefit of representing a big pair so your hand will be quite deceptive if you hit it.

But this idea breaks down if the stacks are too small. You wouldn't want to do this if everyone was sitting around with $60 in your $1/2 game, for example. You might do it for other reasons, but then you'd be right - you'd be wrecking your implied odds because there's not enough money there to get for those rare times you hit big and get paid off big.