20 +2: blind battle:

BarryLyndon · #1 10-20-2007, 06:14 PM

30/60
SB (1825)
Hero (1150)

No reads

Folds to SB who raises to 120, Hero says to himself "ORLLY?" This is weak, insecure BS at this level enough of the time, so Hero calls with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with position:

Flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Villain checks, Hero ?

Assume hero checks back to take a free card.

Turn: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets 240, Hero ???

River_Mitt · #2 10-20-2007, 06:37 PM

You will have a better chance to get chips from this villian at a later time, fold.

BarryLyndon · #3 10-20-2007, 06:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You will have a better chance to get chips from this villian at a later time, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guh. I used to think along those lines. Anyway:

First, on this board, is betting when he checks a good move? Can he fold out an A or a mid pair. It's not a terrible place to CR a monster either (for a donk at least).

On the turn, his PSB on 10d wreaks of a myriad of hands. I think I have FE against a good chunk. Ad never lays down here, right? Does he ever call when behind with Qdx? Is that a possibility at this level? I suppose this is a push or fold situation - which one. Marginal push I think is the answer.

Barry

hamnegger · #4 10-20-2007, 07:34 PM

knowing you barry you raised. any of the 3 options are ok i thi

BarryLyndon · #5 10-21-2007, 06:16 AM

Anyone else care to comment on this? I pushed on the turn, fwiw. Semi-bluffs on turns are a pretty interesting concept and difficult to pull of properly. I don't think I was correct here, but I could use some feedback.

Barry

swede554 · #6 10-21-2007, 06:23 AM

I'm pushing either pre, or the turn. I think either is fine in this spot. Flop I like checking behind because I think villan will check-shove semibluff Ax a decent amount of the time here forcing us to fold.

BarryLyndon · #7 10-21-2007, 03:07 PM

ok, fair enough:

Villain bets 240 on turn, Hero pushes, Villain SNAP calls with QdKx. Sexpert call.

I guess this question didn't merit much discussion, though I suspect that's partially because SSMTT has dwindled down into a newb fest of elementary preflop questions and nobody really cares.

Barry

swede554 · #8 10-21-2007, 04:02 PM

I don't think it didn't merit much discussion because no one cares, I think it's because this spot isn't that complicated.

I thought slightly more about the hand, and I like how you played it on pre and on the flop. I said pushing pre would be ok though, and sometimes it would be, but I think if your a competent post flop player calling and playing this hand w/ position is the better play. The thing we should take notice of though, that I kind of missed last night, is that villain checks the flop and then pots the turn. So imo I think he often got something here he is intending to showdown because if he was bluffing I think he'd just c-bet the flop. Now the question is does our hand have enough equity over his hand to jam the turn? I'm not going to run any numbers or ranges but my gut is telling me we don't. If he bets 1/2 or so on the turn I actually like pushing more.

BarryLyndon · #9 10-21-2007, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it didn't merit much discussion because no one cares, I think it's because this spot isn't that complicated.

I thought slightly more about the hand, and I like how you played it on pre and on the flop. I said pushing pre would be ok though, and sometimes it would be, but I think if your a competent post flop player calling and playing this hand w/ position is the better play. The thing we should take notice of though, that I kind of missed last night, is that villain checks the flop and then pots the turn. So imo I think he often got something here he is intending to showdown because if he was bluffing I think he'd just c-bet the flop. Now the question is does our hand have enough equity over his hand to jam the turn? I'm not going to run any numbers or ranges but my gut is telling me we don't. If he bets 1/2 or so on the turn I actually like pushing more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks reasonably complicated to me, fwiw. Mostly because I think you nailed it on the head, swede - his bet on the turn really looks like he is committing himself and I'm seeing a better hand (Ad or a midpair) a ton more than I'm seeing a fold. I also think there was a good question as to whether I should c-bet the flop and whether I should push pre.

I dunno - I like questions like these a lot more than whether I should pushbot with a hand or if AQ is looking good in a turbo. I don't mean to sound difficult, but perfecting flop play in spots like this is so much more important (to me) than those questions, and he hardly have any of them anymore.

Barry

JARID · #10 10-22-2007, 12:21 AM

Barry,

I agree with most of what Swede said with respect to sb checking the flop and then potting the turn that it looks like he is committing to the felting the hand.

I'll simply add that on this board your push looks a little bs'ish.

From the villians perspective;

-You only called pf and failed to bet the flop so its pretty easy to rule out mid pairs
-A flush draw would normally bet the flop when checked to. You didn't, so when the flush gets there on the turn, it is easier to rule out.
-On the flop, 2p or TP would typically bet when checked to. Again, you didn't so...

Its reasonable to assume you either hit a T or have air. Certainly air enough for certain types of players to call you light.(Although, KQ is a little extreme [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

Jarid