Play a Hand With the Masters #3 Flop

[EverettKings]

I'm mostly posting because it's proper to do so before commenting on the firecracker that is (according to strassa) about to explode on the upcoming threads. It's pretty simple so far.

1- Steal raising at this level?
MLG hit it pretty hard. Winning 30 chips is barely in my mind with this raise, its more being in control of a pot in position with deep stacks and a disguised hand. This is poker, and it's a lot of fun.

2- Flop action/thoughts?
I bet this flop against an unknown here like 100% of the time, almost praying for a semibluff raise. It looks like a continuation bet (which i make with a FAT range of hands here) but doesn't let a guy who's done with the hand walk into a straight by accident with his 66. If I get checkraised I rejoice and call and go from there, probably putting in a nice turn raise.

3- Turn action/thoughts
Probalby getting more money in becasue my hand is nice and disguised and I'm ahead a huge chunk of the time. If the turn card is scary it will likely scare him as much as me if he has any kind of a made hand. In that case I probably just call his turn bet and reevaluate the river. Hopefully if something like the 2h falls on the turn and he bets I can call and value bet the river (or check behind if need be) after he checks to me. If he leads the turn and river on a scary board I'll either evaluate based on his bets or use my spidey sense. Can't spell it out here in any case.

4- Additional thoughts (here, a question)
Open limping here is interesting. The problem is that you know so little about your opponents hands, and don't have nearly as much potential to play a (good) big pot. You'll lose a lot more big pots here, since the parameters are so much less defined. That doesn't mean it's not profitable just that it can get very tricky.


On with the show!

Everett

[bruce]

A scared player who flopped a big hand is going to bet too little. He's going to be afraid and underbet his hand.

I'm advocating betting an odd amount to create action. I want
my opponent to think I'm scared. Maybe he'll make a move at me. I think he's more likely if I bet a goofy amount. If I
over bet the pot there's more financial incentive for him to
get creative. I know from my previous experiences when players overbet the pot if I make a big reraise with air I have a good chance of stealing the pot.

Bruce

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
I know from my previous experiences when players overbet the pot if I make a big reraise with air I have a good chance of stealing the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats because they are scared with a medium made hand so they fold. I think on the whole its a bad idea to vary your bet sizes like this. Its just asking to be destroyed by a good player who will pick up on it.

[lgkeeper]

[ QUOTE ]

Pre-Flop and Flop Questions

1) A lot of people talk about playing tight early and don't try to steal blinds when they are this small. What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with trying to steal a blind here. If you have to showdown a bad hand, it could set something up for later. I would only do it with poor hand like this so I can get away from it easily.

[ QUOTE ]
2) What's your decision on the flop? Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I make a 1/2-3/4 pot sized bet here, representing a continuation bet. Hope villain has an overpair and is check-raising or slowplaying.

[ QUOTE ]
3) What's your plan on the turn (if any) based on your decision on the flop, the villain's action, and what card comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it depends on the card, but I may go with the bet-check-bet theory, representing a continuation bet, scare, then attempt to steal.

[tipperdog]

First, thanks to Lloyd for putting this together. This is fun.

Pre-flop: I would have just folded for all the obvious reasons.

Flop: Once I decide to raise, you MUST bet out on this flop. Your hand is quite well-disguised and there are a large number hands you opponent will call (or raise) with. I'd bet around 2/3-3/4 the size of the pot, probably around T125.

I'm planning on betting the turn almost regardless of what comes. I figure that I'm far ahead here, but my hand is vulnerable. If a really nasty card like the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] shows up and the BB leads, I might reevaluate, but my current plan is to bet/raise the turn.

[bruce]

Agreed, against good players it's better not to vary your bet sizes, but against your average internet player who you have never played with, varying your bet should not be problematic.
Seriously, how often do you play against the same people online? Don't you think half the time people online are watching football? I played three live events at the Commerce in the last month. It took a long time until I
saw a familiar face whose style of play I was familiar with.
I don't know where they all come from, but there was a lot of fresh blood. When I play live and people pay more attention to me then I will also try to keep my betting patterns the same.

Bruce

[SABR42]

[ QUOTE ]
1) A lot of people talk about playing tight early and don't try to steal blinds when they are this small. What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

[/ QUOTE ]
Being a LAG myself, I love this play. Raising with a drawing hand in position early in a tournament can accomplish a lot of good things:

1) Find out information on how the blinds play, at a cheap cost. If they fold a lot I know they can be taken advantage of later on.

2) I can win the blinds right away (this isn't really a steal, although if they do fold I am happy, as I did not have a made hand yet).

3) If they do call, I get to play a flop with a creative little hand that could possibly hit big, and my strength will be well disguised. If I miss the flop, a c-bet will still take down the pot a lot of the time.

4) I establish an aggresive image at the table. The weak-tight's will be afraid to play a pot with me without a strong hand, knowing I am capable of playing back at them, with or without a hand. But the main benefit is that my monster hands will get paid off much better later on. By being aggresive I will eventually force the other players (even the weak-tight's) to take a stand with a hand they normally wouldn't play for all their chips, but eventually they'll get tired of being pushed around. If I happen to wake up with a good hand then, they're screwed.

Raising with this type of hand early on in a tournament is highly dependant on what type of table I play on, and to be effective it cannot be overused.

For example, at a low-level Partypoker SnG I would never make this type of play, because the players are simply too loose, and not likely to fold to a c-bet on the flop should I miss the flop (which will be most of the time).

However, at UB or Full Tilt, where players are generally tight, I will often get creative and play LAG right from the start. On party I play very tight, even though it's not my natural style.

[ QUOTE ]
2) What's your decision on the flop? Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I will bet 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot. I make this bet whether or not I have a hand. In this case I do, and there's no reason to think I am beaten. The only hands that beat us right now are a set, or 9-7s, if villain is also a loose player.

If I get check-raised, I will make a large re-raise here, possibly all-in if a pot-sized re-raise pot-commits me anyway. I want villain to know now that I have a hand. It's unlikely that we are beaten on the flop, as a set would likely flat-call and wait till the turn to raise. Most raising hands here are A-9, K-9, or a pocket pair of some kind. Villain would raise those hands thinking we had two overs, trying to take it down. We can beat those hands, but bottom two pair is vulnerable, so I'd want to take it down on the flop with a big raise. Villain could also be semi-bluffing here, in which case we are a favorite.

[ QUOTE ]
3) What's your plan on the turn (if any) based on your decision on the flop, the villain's action, and what card comes?

[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming he calls on the flop, and checks the turn, I will bet on most turn cards. If a real scare-card arrives on the turn, I'll probably check behind, and call a reasonable bet on the river.

If he bets the turn, I plan on calling the turn, and calling the river unless a 4-flush or 4-straight appears. I'd strongly consider folding if that happens.

[ QUOTE ]
4) Any other thoughts at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]
Pray for 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the turn, [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

If he has 9-9, well it wasn't meant to be my tournament, so screw it and start another one.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Setup
$650 PokerStars Qualifier for the PokerStars Carribean Adventure (PCA)
9-Handed
Blinds 10/20
Hero is Strassa
No reads on villain

Stacks
Hero (CO) t2540
BB t3245

Pre-Flop
All fold to hero who has 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and raises to t80. Button and SB fold. BB calls t60.

Flop
Pot: t170

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks. Action is on the hero.

Pre-Flop and Flop Questions

1) A lot of people talk about playing tight early and don't try to steal blinds when they are this small. What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

2) What's your decision on the flop? Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)?

3) What's your plan on the turn (if any) based on your decision on the flop, the villain's action, and what card comes?

4) Any other thoughts at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. It's not necessarily blind stealing. There's little to gain this early on by stealing blinds. Instead, you're hoping to have a well disguised holding, and trap another player who puts you on a more premium set of cards.

2. Well, the Big blind called us out of position, with a larger stack. He may just as easily be playing cards similar to our own, hoping that we're on high cards and a raggedy flop might allow him to win some chips (especially if we're on an overpair).

In this instance, we have flopped bottom two pair, which, heads-up, is pretty strong. But, it's not impossible for our opponent to hold 6/8 and/or the flush draw as well.

I would likely lead out with a continuation bet of 75-100 chips, make it look like we missed but we're hoping to take it down now. If our opponent raises us, it's likely he's hit a piece of this flop, perhaps just a draw. At that point, we can re-raise him and potentially get paid off if he's hit top pair.

If we bet and he just smooth-calls, he's either drawing or looking to take it away from us on the turn. I don't like checking and allowing a free card, bet and hope he either folds or raises so you can re-raise.

3. Luckily on the turn we'll still hold position on our opponent. So depending on what card falls (bringing a much stronger straight or flush possibility, or trip 9's, etc.) we can act accordingly (i.e. with caution) if necessary.

4. No other thoughts at this point.

[Paul Thomson]

Thanks to Loyd and the panel of judges.

Question: What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

Accumulating chips at all stages of the tournament is the key to winning, this obiviously includes the first level. I not only support blind stealing but also raising limpers and reraising raisers. In other words, Strassa should be looking to get involved in pots more than the average tight player. There are three main reasons for this:
1) The blinds in an internet tournament rise quickly. Therefore, it's imperative for all players to continuously accumulate chips. Unless the deck hits you, then you must get involved and out play your opponents or push marginal situations.
2) Strassa is a better player than the field, so he should be looking to get involved in pots where he can use his skill to his advantage. Now he should probably avoid other good tournament players (such as the expert panel for this hand), but he should pick out the weak player and look for getting involved with them. This will probably take the form of playing more flops.
3) Shania
Now these are all reasons to get involved early, not necessarily to steal the bilnd.

I would raise this hand everytime at this level if it was folded to me. Now my goal isn't to "steal the blinds". Increasing my stack by 1.5 BB is insignificant at this stage of the tournament with such deep stacks. Instead, my goal is to evaluate how the players behind me we'll behave in this situation in the future and/or to keep my opponents off balance and/or to win a big pot. Let's look at these three reasons separately:
1) I get to observe the dynamic between the CO-Button-SB-BB when I raise preflop. This is important because I want to see how my opponents react when I raise preflop from the CO. For exmaple, will the button try and reraise me off my hand assuming that I am stealing. We'll the SB & BB defend their blinds? How we'll they defend them? We'll they call or reraise? Do they then fold easily to a continuation bet on the flop? etc. This is important information to begin collecting at the beginning of the tournament.
2) I keep my opponents off balance by raising with marginal hands. Which we'll make it harder for my opponents to put me on a hand. It'll also help get me paid off on my bigger hands.
3) By raising with suited connectors and small pairs, I can play a bigger pot in position which I can get paid off with if the flop hits me hard.

However, the effectiveness of this strategy is in the details of its execution.
In early position: I'd either fold this hand 80% of the time and make a small raise of 2-2.5x the BB 20% of the time. I'd play all pairs and AK or AQs. The reason, I would play all pairs is that they're easy to play out of position, whereas drawing hands are a bitch. The raise is small because I want to play smaller pots out of position.

In mid position, I'd raise 3x the BB with this hand 50% of the time and call the other 50% of the time. If a weak player limped from early position, I'll usually raise to isolate them. If a weak player raised from early position, I would be inclined to call.

In late position, I'm raising 4x the BB when it's folded to me. I'm raising no matter how many limpers are in front of me. I don't mind playing speculative drawing hands if I'm in position. The stacks are deep and I want to play a big pot.

I wish I knew what the other stacks at the table were? And what the average stack in the tournament is? But I do know that the BB has a larger chip stack and I need to win a few big pots to take control of the table. This is as good as a spot to start as any.

If the Button or the binds repop it, I'll probably call 99% of the time. Maybe a little less likely with the button, since I'll be out ot position.

I'll include something Gigabet wrote in a post:
[ QUOTE ]
If I really want to make the hand worthwhile, I will have to induce flop action, and play the hand very deep and very aggressive, after which, one of two things will happen.....I will take down a decent sized pot, which will allow me to take advantage of the other stacks quite liberally, or I will not take the pot down, which will force me to wait for good situations to arise for me to get involved, ie., I cannot "make" anything happen, without risking my tournament life.

[/ QUOTE ] In, other words, accumulating chips inorder to control the action at the table is the key to winning.

Putting the opponent on a hand. Since we have no reads on our opponent, he could more or less have anything. But I am inclined to put him on medium pairs and a little less likely medium suited connectors.


Flop: No matter what came on the flop if the BB checked to me, then I would bet. In the future, I'd add some checking behind to change gears. But right now I want to find out how my opponent reacts to a continuation bet/value bet.

Now the size of my bet depends on the texture of the board and how it hit me and how I suspect it hit my opponent. Even though we have a good hand, it's steal very vulnerable on this board. I'd feel better on this board if we had top two pair.
1) If the flop comes King high rainbow with no draws, then I'd probably throw out a bet between 1/2 - 2/3 the size of the pot. This is the same size bet I'd make if I had trips on this board or missed completely.
2) On a courdinated board like this one, I'd bet something between 3/4 to full size bet. Since this board is highly coordinated (flush draw + straight draws), I'd lean toward a full size bet. The only hesitation is that I suspect it probably hit my opponent as well. I put him on a medium pair or medium suited connector which means he could easily have a hand such as a pair with a good draw (7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 98, 76, T:hear:J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], etc) or I could be beat by a set or a made straight. So I actually want to keep the pot small until I see if a good turn card comes off. Because he might bet a scare card. The vast majority of draws give him 8-9 outs, so I don't want him to get odds of 3-1 or better. I'd bet 100 ~ 120.

My Line:
Scenario 1) If he check-raise...This is what I would do if I were him with a flush draw or straight draw or pair with a gut draw. The reason is that as the opponent you have us covered and chips. And if a scare card comes on the turn then I want to be able to make a big enough bet that will scare my opponent into folding even if it doesn't make my hand. So if I were him, I'd probably raise 4-4.5x the size of our bet depending on the size of our bet. If I were him, I'd want us to fear that we're going to have to be ready to go broke.

I'd call.
Turn: If a horrible scare card comes on the turn that completes both the a straight draw and a flushdraw or maybe even a 9.

Action to me: Opponent checks.
Action: I chech behind. And I'll call practically any river bet that isn't an all-in or larger than a pot size bet.

Action to me: Opponent bets half the pot into me.
Action: This is a tough situation. One that separates the champions from the great players...and the fact of the matter is that I'm not really either. In a live game, I'd probably start looking for tells. Online it's a tough call. I'd probably make that bet if I had made my hand or had a set. All of which I can't beat. Although I have some outs to a flush or straight draw. I don't think I'm really getting the odds to call and get paid off. And I also could be drawing dead. To make matters worst, if I call here i'm more or less committing myself to making a small call on the river.

Now even though I said that accumulating chips is the key to winning. A negative situation with this hand has arisen. To quote gigabet again, "Another problem with playing aggressively in this situation, is that with every chip that I lose, I may actually be losing two chips. With all the stacks at my table being essentially even, it is very important to try and stay "even" with them, if you get into a situation that will double you, every chip that you had lost before almost doubles in value, because they are not there to "double" through. "

Action: I would fold. And then wait for a good hand to double up with.

Scenario2: Any card that completes a single draw or a blank.

Action to me: opponent checks.
Action: I bet half the pot.
If opponent calls. And then checks to me on the river, I'll bet even if a scare card comes. If opponent calls the turn, and then bets into me on the river when a scare card comes...I reevaluate, but probably call if the bet is small enough.

Turn: Any card that completes a single draw or a blank.
Action to me: opponent bets half the pot.
Action: I call. And I plan on calling another bet on the river. I think this line induces a bet from your opponent on the river. Whereas, he'd simply fold a worst hand to a raise on the turn.

That's about it. I'm looking forward to see how things turn out. Thanks agin to Loyd and the panel of judges.

[Paul Thomson]

On the way home, I kept thinking about the hand and I came up with a line that I think might have some merit that most people won't think about. I think our hand has the potential to win a small pot and quickly become second best and lose a big pot.

Flop: We bet 130.
Opponent raises to 450.
Action: We call:
Pot has $1,070

The line that scares me the most which I stated in my original post is:
If he check-raise...This is what I would do if I were him with a flush draw or straight draw or pair with a gut draw. The reason is that as the opponent you have us covered and chips. And if a scare card comes on the turn then I want to be able to make a big enough bet that will scare my opponent into folding even if it doesn't make my hand. So if I were him, I'd probably raise 4-4.5x the size of our bet depending on the size of our bet. If I were him, I'd want us to fear that we're going to have to be ready to go broke.

Turn: Any card.
Action to me: Opponent bets 550.
Action: We call.
Pot has $2,170

River: Any card.
Action to us: Opponent bets 700.
Actio??

We have 1450 left and unless we caught a 7 or a 5, there is little chance that we are still ahead. And even then we could be behind a better full house.

On the other hand, if the opponent bets this way he could still fold on the river with a chip stack of $1465.

The point being is that you won't know where you're at the whole time. Because everybet looks like the nuts or a broken draw. So every decision will be difficult.

So if I was playing against an aggressive good opponent like Daniel Negreanu or Gigabet. I'd take a line that would preserve my chips and try and induce a bluff from my opponent:

On the flop:
Action to me: opponent checks.
Action: I check behind.

The idea is to see a turn card. And if it's a good card to either bet or raise. And if it's a scare card then to simply call. And then do the same on the river.

Scares cards being: Any heart, 9,8,6
Good Cards being: AKQJT75234

For example:
Turn: scare card
Action to me: My opponent bets half the pot.
Action: I call.

Turn: NON-Scare Card.
Action to me: My opponent checks.
Action: I bet half the pot.

Turn: NON-Scare Card.
Actoin to me: Opponent bets 1/3 of the pot.
Action: I raise 3x his bet, so he won't be getting the proper odds to draw to an 8 or 9 outter.

Turn: Non-Scare Card.
Action to me: Opponent bets 1/2 the pot.
Action. I call. Since there is no point in raising since his bet won't give him the proper odds to draw at a flush or straight draw or pair wiht a gut draw. And a raise will only hurt me if I'm behind.

River: I call nearly any bet.

So I think this line could have merit against an aggressive player, who plas the flop well. You're inducing your opponent to bluff if he doesn't have a hand. And even if he makes a hand, then you lose fewer chips. Most importantly by keeping the pot small, you make it difficult for your opponent to bluff you out of the pot, since he has you covered.