My biggest weakness at Turbo HUSNG

[Indiana]

How do you guys deal with complete fish? I mean say u ss them and its like -20K over a few hundo games and they wont ever fold to cbets etc etc....well i know some of u will say to just play tight and get a hand to punish them but the blinds are quick to go up in turbos and that's not a good strategy.

I've also tried to see lots of flops but they stab so much that callin minbets and [censored] out of position gets me busto....seriously the hardest opponent for me to play is a really bad fish who is also kinda laggy and aggro.

Indy

[Nichomacheo]

Same.

[PrimordialAA]

I mean we obviously know "what do you do with a big fish who won't fold... " ... value bet him, but as it's true, blinds go up very quickly and your not gonna catch enough, straights, flushes, 2pairs, top pair good kicker, etc. to make this great, however the key is knowing when he is calling on a random draw, or that quick call thats almost always indicative of "I have SOME bad piece of this board, and will pay you off if it's reasonable, and will not fold", and you need to widen your hands you would normally value bet here, for instance, K 8 suited, on a A 8 5 board, he calls pre-flop, calls the c-bet, and a T comes on the turn, normally we would want to check this and try to achieve something from the showdown value, however against a player like this, I think 1/3 pot on turn, 1/3 or 1/4 on river is the perfect way to perpetually chop him down to nothing. I mean we know value betting is the answer, then it just comes down to hand reading, and bringing hands you normally wouldnt bet for value into your range

[xSCWx]

You need to play the statistics rather than the player. Against complete fish I will try to keep the pot small until my hand is made. If they are a nutcase preflop I will try to wait until I have a solid Ax or a high PP where there is a good chance I will have them dominated before taking an all in.

If they aren't that insane I will raise at any spot where I am probably ahead, such as Ax preflop and ace high on the flop most of the time. Bottom pair applies as well unless I have reason to believe they are actually ahead.

Against these players I try to start slow and almost always end up losing about 1/3 my stack before I learn their play well enough to jam it back down their throats.

[TNixon]

My biggest weakness is getting chips in good against these sorts of players and having my hand not hold up.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But, I think Primordial has got it.

Double-barrel practically never, but be willing to value bet *SUPER* thin, where a good middle pair is often enough for bets on all three streets.

If you're at all confident you're hand's good, though, you can get more than 1/3 or 1/4 pot on each street. My standard bet is 2/3 pot, and I get called on three streets with ace-high on a semi-regular basis against these *really* bad players.

Fortunately, most of them seem to be fairly passive preflop too. I haven't run into many players with really, really bad sharkscope stats that is ultra donk-agressive. Those players tend to be a little higher than the targets I'm looking for, I think, just because so many people play poorly against superdonkagrrofreaks.

Another thing to keep in mind: I don't think you're likely to ever end up with a monster winrate against these sorts of players, because they play to the river too often, which ends up up evening out hands so that they resemble preflop percentages much more, where there just aren't that many situations where you're a *huge* favorite.

They pay you off when you have a made hand, but you end up paying them off more than you would a more solid player as well, because as you're value betting into their two pair, most of them are still just calling. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ChicagoRy]

Yea you really gotta value bet thin, value bet all your draws and be willing to fire 3 when they miss against the kind that calls, calls then folds.

[xSCWx]

Tight/Passive play works well against the psycho aggressive ones because they will smash all of their money in for you. They pretty much dig their own grave and it takes a LOT of blinds to take you out.

WARNING: POORLY DISGUISED BRAG

Full Tilt Poker Game #3376649167: $110 + $5 Heads Up Sit & Go (25823116), Table 1 - 40/80 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:28:40 ET - 2007/08/27
Seat 1: xSCWx (1,755)
Seat 2: wilddurango (1,245)
xSCWx posts the small blind of 40
wilddurango posts the big blind of 80
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xSCWx [Kd Qs]
xSCWx calls 40
wilddurango checks
*** FLOP *** [Ad As Tc]
wilddurango checks
xSCWx checks
*** TURN *** [Ad As Tc] [Td]
wilddurango bets 80
xSCWx calls 80
*** RIVER *** [Ad As Tc Td] [4c]
wilddurango has 15 seconds left to act
wilddurango bets 1,085, and is all in
xSCWx calls 1,085
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wilddurango shows [Qc 2d] two pair, Aces and Tens
xSCWx shows [Kd Qs] two pair, Aces and Tens
xSCWx wins the pot (2,490) with two pair, Aces and Tens
wilddurango stands up
xSCWx stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,490 | Rake 0
Board: [Ad As Tc Td 4c]
Seat 1: xSCWx (small blind) showed [Kd Qs] and won (2,490) with two pair, Aces and Tens
Seat 2: wilddurango (big blind) showed [Qc 2d] and lost with two pair, Aces and Tens

Full Tilt Poker Game #3368194306: $110 + $5 Heads Up Sit & Go (25760024), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 6:56:32 ET - 2007/08/26
Seat 1: xSCWx (2,140)
Seat 2: DirtyDawg1 (860)
xSCWx posts the small blind of 15
DirtyDawg1 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xSCWx [Jd Jh]
xSCWx raises to 90
DirtyDawg1 calls 60
*** FLOP *** [Js 9s Jc]
DirtyDawg1 checks
xSCWx bets 30
DirtyDawg1 has 15 seconds left to act
DirtyDawg1 raises to 180
xSCWx has 15 seconds left to act
xSCWx calls 150
*** TURN *** [Js 9s Jc] [9d]
DirtyDawg1 has 15 seconds left to act
DirtyDawg1 bets 590, and is all in
xSCWx has 15 seconds left to act
xSCWx: SLOWWWWW ROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
xSCWx calls 590
DirtyDawg1 shows [7s Qs]
xSCWx shows [Jd Jh]
*** RIVER *** [Js 9s Jc 9d] [2s]
DirtyDawg1 shows a flush, Queen high
xSCWx shows four of a kind, Jacks
xSCWx wins the pot (1,720) with four of a kind, Jacks
DirtyDawg1 stands up
xSCWx stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1,720 | Rake 0
Board: [Js 9s Jc 9d 2s]
Seat 1: xSCWx (small blind) showed [Jd Jh] and won (1,720) with four of a kind, Jacks
Seat 2: DirtyDawg1 (big blind) showed [7s Qs] and lost with a flush, Queen high

This one is the first hand.

Full Tilt Poker Game #3376742289: $100 + $5 Heads Up Sit & Go (25824896), Table 1 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:38:41 ET - 2007/08/27
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xSCWx [Qc Ks]
pokerrocks63 has 15 seconds left to act
pokerrocks63 raises to 140
xSCWx calls 120
*** FLOP *** [2s Kh 3c]
xSCWx checks
pokerrocks63 bets 280
xSCWx has 15 seconds left to act
xSCWx calls 280
*** TURN *** [2s Kh 3c] [Ts]
xSCWx checks
pokerrocks63 bets 840
xSCWx raises to 1,080, and is all in
pokerrocks63 calls 240, and is all in
xSCWx shows [Qc Ks]
pokerrocks63 shows [Td 9d]
*** RIVER *** [2s Kh 3c Ts] [Jc]
xSCWx shows a pair of Kings
pokerrocks63 shows a pair of Tens
xSCWx wins the pot (3,000) with a pair of Kings
pokerrocks63 stands up
xSCWx stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,000 | Rake 0
Board: [2s Kh 3c Ts Jc]
Seat 1: xSCWx (big blind) showed [Qc Ks] and won (3,000) with a pair of Kings
Seat 2: pokerrocks63 (small blind) showed [Td 9d] and lost with a pair of Tens

Full Tilt Poker Game #3367757371: $80 + $5 Heads Up Shootout (25750392), Table 2 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 4:46:12 ET - 2007/08/26
Seat 1: wvlax1425 (680)
Seat 2: xSCWx (2,320)
wvlax1425 posts the small blind of 10
xSCWx posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xSCWx [Kh 7d]
wvlax1425 calls 10
xSCWx checks
*** FLOP *** [Kd Qs 2d]
xSCWx checks
wvlax1425 checks
*** TURN *** [Kd Qs 2d] [2h]
xSCWx checks
wvlax1425 checks
*** RIVER *** [Kd Qs 2d 2h] [7h]
xSCWx checks
wvlax1425 bets 120
xSCWx calls 120
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wvlax1425 shows [Ts 8c] a pair of Twos
xSCWx shows [Kh 7d] two pair, Kings and Sevens
xSCWx wins the pot (280) with two pair, Kings and Sevens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 280 | Rake 0
Board: [Kd Qs 2d 2h 7h]
Seat 1: wvlax1425 (small blind) showed [Ts 8c] and lost with a pair of Twos
Seat 2: xSCWx (big blind) showed [Kh 7d] and won (280) with two pair, Kings and Sevens

Full Tilt Poker Game #3367825403: $80 + $5 Heads Up Shootout (25750392), Table 1 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 5:04:06 ET - 2007/08/26
Seat 1: bawatl (2,630)
Seat 2: xSCWx (3,370)
xSCWx posts the small blind of 25
bawatl posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xSCWx [8c 9s]
xSCWx calls 25
bawatl checks
*** FLOP *** [6c Jd Ts]
bawatl checks
xSCWx bets 100
bawatl calls 100
*** TURN *** [6c Jd Ts] [Qc]
bawatl bets 300
xSCWx has 15 seconds left to act
xSCWx calls 300
*** RIVER *** [6c Jd Ts Qc] [8h]
bawatl bets 2,180, and is all in
xSCWx calls 2,180
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bawatl shows [4s 3h] Queen Jack high
xSCWx shows [8c 9s] a straight, Queen high
xSCWx wins the pot (5,260) with a straight, Queen high
bawatl stands up
xSCWx stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,260 | Rake 0
Board: [6c Jd Ts Qc 8h]
Seat 1: bawatl (big blind) showed [4s 3h] and lost with Queen Jack high
Seat 2: xSCWx (small blind) showed [8c 9s] and won (5,260) with a straight, Queen high

Full Tilt Poker Game #3373461704: $55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go (25799707), Table 1 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:21:01 ET - 2007/08/26
Seat 1: xSCWx (1,745)
Seat 2: sbkings (1,255)
xSCWx posts the small blind of 20
sbkings posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xSCWx [Ac Th]
xSCWx raises to 120
sbkings calls 80
*** FLOP *** [Ts 6c 2s]
sbkings checks
xSCWx checks
*** TURN *** [Ts 6c 2s] [5h]
sbkings checks
xSCWx bets 180
sbkings calls 180
*** RIVER *** [Ts 6c 2s 5h] [7d]
sbkings bets 955, and is all in
xSCWx calls 955
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sbkings shows [Kd 4d] King Ten high
xSCWx shows [Ac Th] a pair of Tens
xSCWx wins the pot (2,510) with a pair of Tens
sbkings stands up
xSCWx stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,510 | Rake 0
Board: [Ts 6c 2s 5h 7d]
Seat 1: xSCWx (small blind) showed [Ac Th] and won (2,510) with a pair of Tens
Seat 2: sbkings (big blind) showed [Kd 4d] and lost with King Ten high

I could post more but I'm sure you guys get the idea.

[Indiana]

X,

These hands look great and I also like to let donkeys stack off but u did hit hands here. most of the time u wont have anything, then what? I mean i get what the guys are saying here, when you get hands u will crush them but when u dont you will struggle. And yes i agree on the valuebetting.

[cwar]

I think some of the toughest opponents are the ones that often turn their medium strong hands into bluffs, for example if villain will triple barrel with middle pairs you cannot call him down with bottom pair like you could against a LAG who will triple barrel often but not turn his marginal pairs into bluffs.

[xSCWx]

[ QUOTE ]
X,

These hands look great and I also like to let donkeys stack off but u did hit hands here. most of the time u wont have anything, then what? I mean i get what the guys are saying here, when you get hands u will crush them but when u dont you will struggle. And yes i agree on the valuebetting.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't hit just fold most hands and bet when you get crappy draws.