Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?

[Hebel]

no one cares at 10nl what your hand looks like. make a hand and vbet it to death, save this for msnl

[thing85]

Even at a tight table, I don't like T8s UTG because if it gets to the flop, you will often be OOP and run into these kind of marginal situations.

It's pretty obvious that villain has a J or some kind of PP lower than KK, so your turn play looks okay given your outs + FE.

IMO, this is still a very marginal spot (PF), and I know you're currently dealing with a bad downswing so I would generally suggest staying away from these marginal EV situations, especially if you're uncertain how to play it. It's okay to do every once in awhile I guess, but then I think you're putting money in OOP too often if this becomes a standard play under these conditions.

Good hand to post though - post more hands, it'll help your game out.

[thing85]

BTW, if turn card wasn't a K or A, you're probably getting called on your shove 99% of the time.

[wingchunflush]

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no one cares at 10nl what your hand looks like. make a hand and vbet it to death, save this for msnl

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Could this be less constructive?

[Hebel]

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no one cares at 10nl what your hand looks like. make a hand and vbet it to death, save this for msnl

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Could this be less constructive?

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it is constructive. you cannot count on your opponents at this level to know your stats or table image, or have any semblance of hand reading skills. this is first level thinking here. People at higher stakes semibluff like this all the time. But their plays work because their opponents have some idea of how the game should be played. If you played this hand 10 times you should be shocked at what villains will call with. Your fold equity is never as great as you think. Why would you put yourself in these type of situations when people will call you down with anything? just be patient, make a hand, and get good value out of it. These kinds of plays are entirely unnecessary to beat the game.

[well named]

This is mostly a grunch, since there's like 8 replies while I've been writing it:

Re: T8s UTG. I think it's marginal and i'd fold it the majority of the time given the typical table, but with the right image or table I raise it sometimes, especially if the blinds fold to c-bets too much and the LP players aren't making squeeze plays, and very very rarely I might even limp it with a loose-passive table of villains who don't raise pre-flop but get it in too loose postflop. In my opinion it's a threshold hand where table dynamics should factor heavily into how you play it, although folding is the best "default" play.

On the flop, with 100bb starting stacks I just shove here pretty much all the time for slightly more than a pot-sized raise. Here, about 130bb deep, it's less clear, but even discounting fold equity, and even if his range is only {JJ+,77,22,AhJh,Ah7h} you still have 40% equity, so I think it will be marginally +EV to get it in here, and of course it's even more so if add hands like AJo and if he folds that and some of the overpairs sometimes.

Given that it shouldn't be -EV even in the worst case scenario, and given that against a large part of his range your implied odds on the flush might not be very good, and that you lose a lot of equity on a blank turn, I think I would go ahead and raise the flop. I'm not certain whether it's better to just shove outright (which is a big overbet) or just raise to like $8. I'd probably just shove.

Note: I agree with the general sentiment that 10nl is more about value betting than fold-equity, and not semi-bluffing too lightly is one of the adjustments I had to make before I started actually winning at micro-stakes, but raising or betting with a strong combo-draw is, at some level, a value bet, since generally it increases the amount of equity you get from your hand. I don't semi-bluff raise a gut-shot at 10nl (a hand which depends heavily on FE) but a ~10-ish (discounting a bit) draw is very strong and raising it here is as much for value as it is for fold equity, in my opinion.

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I don´t think he has a flush draw or else he wouldn´t have really folded on the turn.

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You shouldn't reason like this when considering the flop action because obviously you don't know that he's going to fold to a turn shove on the flop, and normally you shouldn't assume that a flop check-raiser in a raised-pot is going to fold to a 3-bet on a (relatively) blank turn.

[ama0330]

Lol you guys are all nits. T8s UTG is 100% fine, its thin and its a LAG play but its totally acceptable. Preflop doesnt matter anyway, its postflop where the money is made/lost. FWIW, 74s is in my UTG range so take that as you will.

Flop goot, I shove though. A blank turn kills your hand and you are a fave against Jx if its not 2pr. Turn is a sick play but given that hes def got a jack (or maybe a dumb FD) I think you get a fold a lot of the time here.

Ive based this on a 50nl/100nl villain, I think that this whole play is most likely -EV at 10nl just bc ppl dont like to fold TP. But here I think I would be 3betting the flop and looking to get AI. As played, I think I fold the turn bc I dont think you get paid if you hit.

[wingchunflush]

I am not counting on his hand reading or his level of thinking. I cbet and got check raised and I have a flush draw with a gut shot. I am mainly wondering about my play of waiting for the turn to shove since it was a scare card. I have played alot of hands of ABC poker at this level, playing 9 tables. Breaking my game down to playing 2 tables and thinking through my actions has made my winrate skyrocket and a good part of it is being able to win marginal pots like this. ITs probably not needed but it certainly helps if done correctly.

[wingchunflush]

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Lol you guys are all nits. T8s UTG is 100% fine, its thin and its a LAG play but its totally acceptable. Preflop doesnt matter anyway, its postflop where the money is made/lost. FWIW, 74s is in my UTG range so take that as you will.


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TY AMA [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Hebel]

If this post is about the flop play then i say get it in there where your equity is maximized.

ama, you locked some of my threads where I made plays like this on the turn saying that I needed to work on my spew issues. i did, and my winrate skyrocketed