Correct play for 2 overcards

shimoda · #1 10-12-2006, 05:13 PM

Maybe this is a FAQ, if so feel free to flame me.
I'm really struggling with this concept. Let's say you have AKo in CO and raise preflop and get maybe 3 callers, flop is all rags.
What is correct play. Raising? Checking? C/R?
I have tried various approaches and seem to loose money on all of them.

sarsen · #2 10-12-2006, 05:15 PM

Here's some of Loyalguards luv....

Overcards

Also, you haven't provided enough information. What's your postion, what type of player are you up against. There are no set plays.

shimoda · #3 10-12-2006, 05:22 PM

Yes I suppose you are right. Sigh!
Basically as I play on the nano-tables most players are loose. FP% 35-60. You can almost never force anyone to fold with a bet so basically you are betting for value with 6 outs.
But is that a sane approach?

sarsen · #4 10-12-2006, 05:27 PM

Betting for value with Ace high against multiple opponents? How likely is it that everyone missed the flop and your Ace high is still good?

HollywoodDB · #5 10-12-2006, 05:37 PM

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...e=0#Post7623905

shimoda · #6 10-12-2006, 05:44 PM

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Betting for value with Ace high against multiple opponents? How likely is it that everyone missed the flop and your Ace high is still good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! I read a few of the posts you linked to and I agree that if you are in late position and get bet in to, you should raise. But if you are first to act with two overcards...ahh that is something else.

kerowo · #7 10-12-2006, 05:53 PM

On a table with loose passive players you make more money not bluffing than bluffing. For sake of argument raising a ragged board with A high is bluffing. If you miss the flop and your c-bet is called by a bunch of people stop putting money in the pot UI. If there a lot of people in you may not even want to c-bet and c/c or c/f the turn depending. C/R with air or betting overcards into calling stations is a huge leak. Learn to fold A high.

Nfinity · #8 10-12-2006, 11:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting for value with Ace high against multiple opponents? How likely is it that everyone missed the flop and your Ace high is still good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! I read a few of the posts you linked to and I agree that if you are in late position and get bet in to, you should raise. But if you are first to act with two overcards...ahh that is something else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's try this from the workbook angle...

Post a hand in which you yourself think it would be correct to raise a bet on the flop with just 2 OC's, no straight, flush, or backdoor draws. We'll critique it, and eventually through this process we'll come up with an answer.

Be as specific as possible.(ie Reads, position, an actual board would all be nice.)

RakeBackDepot · #9 10-12-2006, 10:11 PM

If rags are spread out like 2 5 9- bet. If rags are consecutive like 567- check. If your opponents are aggressive- check. If they are passive- bet. If your table image sucks- check, if good- bet.

Hellmouth · #10 10-13-2006, 09:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If rags are spread out like 2 5 9- bet. If rags are consecutive like 567- check. If your opponents are aggressive- check. If they are passive- bet. If your table image sucks- check, if good- bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say also factor into the equation how good your overs are. AK for example is unlikely to be dominated and make the best hand if you spike one of them. QT is a lot more likely to be dominated and you are more likely to lose to a hand that dominates you (eg AQ).

Also consider the odds. At the nanolimit tables you are a lot more likely to be getting correct odds if the table is passive and no one will raise behind you.

Assume for a moment that the board is not connected and not two or three flushed. You have pretty good over cards (mabe KQ or KJ). You have 6 outs. I would discount them to 4. (discount to 3 or 2 if the board is really coordinated or 2 suited). You claim that there are usually ~6 people in on the flop. That is 6 bets in on th flop. Effectively 3 half those people will call the flop. And usually anyone that calls the flop will be on average for 3 more small bets to the river. So the pot will be ~9sb by the turn and 19sb by the river (including now your flop bet but not the turn bet).

So 19sb is your implied odds. Four outs give you (46/4)-1 odds or 10.5:1. (You should memorize this one, you will use it a lot) Therefore you easily have the odds to call one flop bet. Right now you do not have enough in there to call a turn bet since 2sb will be necessary and 19/2 is only 9.5 not 10.5. However if you get another caller in there (four instead of three) you can bet/call again. this will become a mistake if the turn is raised.

If you get a lot of people ducking out on the flop (like 6 callers pf but pots are usually heads up after the flop) then check/fold line is better if you don't have a good enough table image to get everyone to fold to your flop bet.

This is quite a lot of information. I am pretty sure it is all correct. However if anyone sees a flaw let me know.

I think in the nano's you are less likely to be dominated by a great hand so maybe you can adjust the out count upward to 5 on a nonscary board. I am not sure. That would easily give you odds to call the flop and possibly the turn.

Greg