Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]
If this were a 27Q board, it's a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

No sir.

[phage]

[ QUOTE ]

These spots come up about once a session with me. I never (EVER) fold overpairs or TPTK in them. So I've probably called here about 200-300 times, and consequently have a sample size of 2-300 to use to estimate what hole cards your typical drooler will have here.

You, on the other hand, always fold here. Your sample size consists of the 10 or 20 hands that villain might have deigned to show you instead of mucking (and that's if you've played as many sessions as me, which is possible, because I don't do nearly as many hands/month as most here).

And yet you'd like to lecture all of us on Villain's range? Do you see why I am getting a little tired of arguing with you about villain's range? How the hell would you know it? You are applying some amateur psychology to people you can't even see, to try and get an inkling of their thought-process. You make all kinds of (incorrect) assumptions about how rational these people (that you can't see, and don't know) would act.

Me, I'll take the data from my n=200 experiment over your intuition, thanks very much.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times were you behind when you've made those calls? I'm not trying to be a dick here...Just curious.

[Snipe]

Bilbo shoots and scores again.

Question for everyone tho - how much does it change things if this is UTG versus UTG+1?

[Andykay]

Wow I went to sleep and this thread exploded. Ok first off, when I said that the player seemed bad, the only info I had for that is the obvious, he open shoved a flop for 4x the pot. That isn't to say he is an awful player in all regards. For all I know he could be 2+2 and using some kind of crazy reverse level, knowing the standard 2+2 line on this board is snap call.

This is a 3bet pot. If he is remotely competent he probably realises on that board i've either got a monster or nothing. I don't necessarily know if he's bad enough to just open shove top pair when I could very easily have a set/overpair here.

I know folding here looks weak, but this hand is one of a few where i've flopped a set or a big overpair and the dynamics of that particular hand have made me feel like I should fold. Every time that's been the case in recent months i've been beaten. Of course i've called every time because that's the standard line, but i'm starting to question whether it should always be.

-Andy

[primate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is a snap call, but bilbo your stoved range has the wrong board. regardless it's still a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, yeah, our equity is even better:

Board: 8h 9s Qs
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 68.441% 67.79% 00.65% 48990 472.50 { QQ+, 99-88, AsKs, AsJs, AsTs, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, JTs, Q8o+, JTo }
Hand 1: 31.559% 30.90% 00.65% 22335 472.50 { KcKh }


MRBAA,

It isn't about how many hands of poker you've played. It's about how often you HAVE CALLED IN THESE SPOTS.

These spots come up about once a session with me. I never (EVER) fold overpairs or TPTK in them. So I've probably called here about 200-300 times, and consequently have a sample size of 2-300 to use to estimate what hole cards your typical drooler will have here.

You, on the other hand, always fold here. Your sample size consists of the 10 or 20 hands that villain might have deigned to show you instead of mucking (and that's if you've played as many sessions as me, which is possible, because I don't do nearly as many hands/month as most here).

And yet you'd like to lecture all of us on Villain's range? Do you see why I am getting a little tired of arguing with you about villain's range? How the hell would you know it? You are applying some amateur psychology to people you can't even see, to try and get an inkling of their thought-process. You make all kinds of (incorrect) assumptions about how rational these people (that you can't see, and don't know) would act.

Me, I'll take the data from my n=200 experiment over your intuition, thanks very much.

[/ QUOTE ]

What stats are your typical Bilbo player showing here when you snap call?

[deaders]

I have a rough idea of the thought process behind most of these donk moves. Its either:

"(QJo) Wow this guy sure raises a lot, I have top pair which is a strong hand so I'll go All-in and put him to a decision for all his chips"

or

"(A5ss) Wow I got a flush draw! Im going to make a big bluff and the best way to do that is to go All-in, he probably doesnt have anything anyway."

[MRBAA]

Andy, there are no standard lines. When an unknown opponent pushes this big, and the pot is relatively small compared to the bet size, you must think. It's important to play situations like this individually, not by rote. If he had only $50 behind and pushed, it's a call. If he's a known maniac, it's a call. Most of the posters in this thread will be losers for life at poker, that's just a stat. A few may be significant winners. Regardless, the "snap call" advice with no rationale is just wrong (and dumb). The call based on the odds in similar situations is more reasonable, but still flawed, since every situation is different. Personally, the hand you posted is not a particularly great gambling opportunity in my mind.

[wdead]

[ QUOTE ]
You can fold because you are far from pot commited and it's pretty likely you're beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say hero has best hand here like over 75% of the time

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

These spots come up about once a session with me. I never (EVER) fold overpairs or TPTK in them. So I've probably called here about 200-300 times, and consequently have a sample size of 2-300 to use to estimate what hole cards your typical drooler will have here.

You, on the other hand, always fold here. Your sample size consists of the 10 or 20 hands that villain might have deigned to show you instead of mucking (and that's if you've played as many sessions as me, which is possible, because I don't do nearly as many hands/month as most here).

And yet you'd like to lecture all of us on Villain's range? Do you see why I am getting a little tired of arguing with you about villain's range? How the hell would you know it? You are applying some amateur psychology to people you can't even see, to try and get an inkling of their thought-process. You make all kinds of (incorrect) assumptions about how rational these people (that you can't see, and don't know) would act.

Me, I'll take the data from my n=200 experiment over your intuition, thanks very much.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times were you behind when you've made those calls? I'm not trying to be a dick here...Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make a WILD guess, based on how I advocated that OP act in this hand, and assuming that I am not a sadistic prick trying to burn OP's money.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is a snap call, but bilbo your stoved range has the wrong board. regardless it's still a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, yeah, our equity is even better:

Board: 8h 9s Qs
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 68.441% 67.79% 00.65% 48990 472.50 { QQ+, 99-88, AsKs, AsJs, AsTs, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, JTs, Q8o+, JTo }
Hand 1: 31.559% 30.90% 00.65% 22335 472.50 { KcKh }


MRBAA,

It isn't about how many hands of poker you've played. It's about how often you HAVE CALLED IN THESE SPOTS.

These spots come up about once a session with me. I never (EVER) fold overpairs or TPTK in them. So I've probably called here about 200-300 times, and consequently have a sample size of 2-300 to use to estimate what hole cards your typical drooler will have here.

You, on the other hand, always fold here. Your sample size consists of the 10 or 20 hands that villain might have deigned to show you instead of mucking (and that's if you've played as many sessions as me, which is possible, because I don't do nearly as many hands/month as most here).

And yet you'd like to lecture all of us on Villain's range? Do you see why I am getting a little tired of arguing with you about villain's range? How the hell would you know it? You are applying some amateur psychology to people you can't even see, to try and get an inkling of their thought-process. You make all kinds of (incorrect) assumptions about how rational these people (that you can't see, and don't know) would act.

Me, I'll take the data from my n=200 experiment over your intuition, thanks very much.

[/ QUOTE ]

What stats are your typical Bilbo player showing here when you snap call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Put it this way, I've never seen a 19/17/3 player do this. And I'm not really worried that all the TAGs will read this thread and start doing it. That's because this line is completely retarded NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE HOLDING. There are cheaper ways to bluff. There are better ways to maximize value.

So, again, take a guess as to what types of villains do this to me, and what there stats are like.