high stakes limit - Page 4

gaming_mouse · #31 03-07-2007, 06:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Might be an ok fold depending on what you know about the other guy. However, if you play every A5 like this HU against competent opponents, you'll be broke very soon. I'll guarantee you that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to hear some concrete examples too.

Lestat,

How would you play this against a competent opponent HU? How often are c/c vs c/r this flop? For each of those flop lines, how do you plan to proceed on the turn?

And say you c/r the flop and he calls, and you fire again on the turn.... how do you expect him to respond with: A8, AJ, KJ, 44, plus anything else you think is relevant?

MarkD · #32 03-07-2007, 07:50 PM

Lestat,

Let me pre-face this by saying that I am not a HU player and have never spent much time studying it, but that doesn't matter for what I am going to say.

"I'm not that familiar with pokerstove. I have it, but don't use it much. Can you give me an example of how you would input the range of ALL hands? I mean, do you sit there and separately input A5s, vs. AK, AQ,... JTs, etc.?"

edit: To answer your question. No. Pokerstove does that for you and then gives you the overall result. See below.

This is what everyone else is talking about:
Code:<hr /><pre>
Board: Qc 6d 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.096% 44.03% 02.07% 471171 22144.00 { Ah5h }
Hand 1: 53.904% 51.83% 02.07% 554731 22144.00 { random }
</pre><hr />

Also, if villian will only reraise pre-flop with the top 20% of all hands:

Code:<hr /><pre>
Board: Qc 6d 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.934% 30.83% 02.10% 65622 4477.00 { Ah5h }
Hand 1: 67.066% 64.96% 02.10% 138274 4477.00 { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
</pre><hr />

Or, maybe I don't know anything about HU and maybe they are reraising with the top 35% of all hands:

Code:<hr /><pre>
Board: Qc 6d 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.956% 34.24% 03.71% 124418 13486.00 { Ah5h }
Hand 1: 62.044% 58.33% 03.71% 211940 13486.00 { 55+, A2s+, K3s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
</pre><hr />

Victor · #33 03-07-2007, 08:28 PM

lestat, you have done nothing but insult me and question my ability in this thread. i have not attacked you at all.

heres some examples:

"What are you guys smoking?!!! Let me in on it! "

"If you really don't understand that, how are you not broke? The only answer is you don't play against decent players HU. "

"Exactly what and where do you play Victor? " wow u play higher than me congrats.

"All I have left to say is good luck with your heads up play. It looks like you're going to need a lot of it when not up against someone completely incompetent. "

no, im not gonna discuss this with you anymore bc you are obv a selfrighteous douchebag prick and i have no desire to help your game out. secondly, bc plenty of ppl have contacte me telling me not to educate the fish, rofl.

i will say 2 things. first, its possible you are fckn awesome hu player and crush tough opponents are awesoem at life and play higher than i can dream. but that is doesnt mean you dont misplay certain situations.

secondly, soooooootttttttedness is absolutely irrelevant on this flop hahahahaha.

Victor · #34 03-07-2007, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you run A5s against other 3-bettable non-ace hands, such as KJs, et al., I'm pretty sure A5s is NOT a dog on a Q76 flop (that's without analysis of simulations, but I'm willing to bet that's right. Again, this from tons of experience playing HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

i will take this bet for any amount.

Lestat · #35 03-07-2007, 09:16 PM

*Uh, I think the insults were started the other way around with the first... "I love playing people like you!". Whatever...

*You've already educated me beyond belief! This pokerstove is awesome stuff!

*I never said I don't misplay hands. It wasn't even my intention to advocate a check/raise (see my first response). My main point was that throwing this hand away every single time on the flop every time is sure disaster in a heads up match. You got me sucked into being the devil's advocate with you're "Loving to play against people like me" remark. I still stand by what I said. You should NOT be throwing this hand away EVERY time and check/folding should NOT be the routine play here.

*How high I play (or you play), doesn't matter, except for that this is a high limit forum which assumes opponents won't be weak fishes. And you can only be successful check/folding this flop every time in this situation to a weak fish. Again, I refer you to my *first* response, where I indicated the check/fold may have been fine. I certainly didn't lambast it. I only got more involved after your initial snide comment to me.

I could go on, but I'm too busy playing around with this pokerstove and want to get back to it. Thanks!

Victor · #36 03-07-2007, 09:18 PM

lestat, about the bet?

Lestat · #37 03-07-2007, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you run A5s against other 3-bettable non-ace hands, such as KJs, et al., I'm pretty sure A5s is NOT a dog on a Q76 flop (that's without analysis of simulations, but I'm willing to bet that's right. Again, this from tons of experience playing HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

i will take this bet for any amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I'm using my pokerstove, I see that you're right. But poker is not played in a vaccuum, or on a simulator for that matter. I'm still willing to bet that check/folding the flop every time, won't perform as well as mixing it up in a real game. Want to take that bet?

Lestat · #38 03-07-2007, 09:31 PM

Heads-up play (at least for me), is mostly about rhythm. There's a constant tempo that's being set. To the point, where I'll sometimes forego what I know to be a mathematically +EV situation. The converse is true as well. I'll sometimes purposely take a little bit the worst of it.

I use math as a guideline, not in a super strict, end all-be all fashion. There's too much "feel" involved. This is how I know a guy like Victor who only wants to talk simulations, can't be playing against tough competition. The more math you know, the better. But it doesn't replace "feel" and hand reading. Straight math will only beat soft competition.

Scary_Tiger · #39 03-07-2007, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you run A5s against other 3-bettable non-ace hands, such as KJs, et al., I'm pretty sure A5s is NOT a dog on a Q76 flop (that's without analysis of simulations, but I'm willing to bet that's right. Again, this from tons of experience playing HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

i will take this bet for any amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I'm using my pokerstove, I see that you're right. But poker is not played in a vaccuum, or on a simulator for that matter. I'm still willing to bet that check/folding the flop every time, won't perform as well as mixing it up in a real game. Want to take that bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

how daft are you??? that wasn't what Victor ever argued

PokerPrince · #40 03-07-2007, 09:46 PM

Amazing that such an innocent post that I thought no one would pay attention to has caused such heated debate. Lestat, I don't think anyone is disputing that making an occassional play for the pot or even peeling on the flop is fine now and again. They are merely stating that if you pugnaciously fight for every pot with a hand like this is this situation, you're going to be in some bad spots and have a lot of tough decisions to make, therefore losing money. As Glenn stated, you are out of position and your opponent gets to control the pot size. Couple this up with the fact that you have a less than marginal hand once the flop arrives(an overcard that may or may NOT be live and a poor backdoor draw to a pipedream straight) and you have good reason to let it go -most- of the time(80% but obviously opponent-dependant).