KQ vs 3 bettor on Q25 flop

JSampras1 · #1 11-11-2007, 05:39 AM

Villian is 14% VPIP, 10.3 PF raise, AF 3.31. I had a note on him that he 4 bet a low flop with probable high cards, then took a free card on the turn and check folded the river.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls??.

Turn: (9.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero ???

I see aggressive players do this with ak often. I'm behind to AA KK QQ AQ, and there's a good chance he has one of those. If he has KK, QQ or AQ i'm in a lot of trouble. If he has AA i still have 5 outs. I doubt he'd 3 bet JJ here, so that leaves AK, or MAYBE AJh that i'm ahead of.

Should i be folding this? I feel like this is a big leak in my game. I really don't like calling down, but i really have no idea if i should be folding this or not. For instance, i just played a hand a minute ago where i raised AK, bet and 3 bet a 10 high flop, and then bet a low turn, and the guy folded. If i am folding KQ in this situation, aren't i just giving aggressive opponents license to steal?

JSampras1 · #2 11-11-2007, 07:11 AM

No help yet? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I just came up with another idea. Would it be terrible to just call down FTR in this situation? If i raise and get 3 bet, am i really folding to 1 more small bet on the flop? So assuming i raise the flop, get 3 bet, call, then fold to a turn bet, i lose 3 small bets. If i call FTR i lose 5 small bets but i get to see all 5 cards.

It seems like a weak play, but i was thinking if he has J/J, 10/10, or A/K he may continue to bet if i don't raise. If i have him beat and I raise I doubt i'll get much more from him than 1 more flop bet.

Because this is a situation where i'm either way ahead (AK 3 outs, PP 2 outs) or way behind, and he can't take free cards because he's betting for me and i will be if he checks, is just calling FTR an option?

StrictlyStrategy · #3 11-11-2007, 07:28 AM

Raise flop, call down from there. How many hands do you have on him?

milesdyson · #4 11-11-2007, 07:30 AM

coldcallers are unlikely to have many outs here. i call down because i don't believe in protecting hands.

JSampras1 · #5 11-11-2007, 01:30 PM

I know i have to protect my hand, but if he is behind his bet already protects my hand. If i didn't have the king overcard i'd be much more vulnerable, but as i said AK is the only possible 2 overcard hand and STILL only has 3 outs. Anything else has 2 outs.

If he didn't 3 bet my preflop of course i raise, but my specific problem is I am either way ahead or way behind here. Either i take him off a hand he's way behind or I get 3 bet and then i have to call down TR anyway and i just lose 2 more bets.

Just check calling makes no sense here?

wizard · #6 11-12-2007, 03:52 PM

I think that the range givin for the SB is way to tight for your description of him. JJ and may other hands are in his range. I will just let him lead and either stack chips or say NH at the river. If you are confident that your range is correct, fold to the 3 bet btf, or at the very least, after.

Hyperrrprank · #7 11-12-2007, 05:59 PM

I think this is a calldown situation. You are probably behind given his three bet preflop, and if you have enough of a read on his solid preflop play you might be able to get away, but the pot is getting big and you've got too strong a hand to release here to someone with aggressive betting tendencies.

Folding the best hand in a big pot is the WORST POSSIBLE MISTAKE you can make. Calling down here with the second best hand is a far smaller (and cheaper) mistake.

jesse8888 · #8 11-12-2007, 08:07 PM

I don't play online. In my live game this move would be very read dependent, but the standard against an unknown for me would be to call it down. I think you win more than 1 time in 6.

Against someone with a 14% VPIP (I don't think I've ever seen one of these in my 6/12 game), I don't really know what to do. I'm always very conscious of my image and never want people to think they can take me off hands. I'd probably call this down and hope for the best.