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#81
11-07-2007, 10:46 PM
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Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] All Two Plus Two did, was to provide the infrastructure and also the atmosphere for a group of posters of Two Plus Two to notice, investigate and alert. [/ QUOTE ] This is flat out wrong. What Two Plus Two has done over the past twenty years is to create an entity that must be taken seriously by everyone in the poker business. Also, we do have a very strong reputation for integrity. It is this framework which allows our posters to have the kind of influence they had in this situation. No other major entity in the industry, as far as I know, was able to step forward in the manner that we did and apply the kind of pressure that we did. Yes, you may argue that this was done by our posters and not by us. But it was done under our name which meant it needed to be taken very seriously and could not be sloughed off. [/ QUOTE ] I should probably just let this go, because, after all, we're all on the same side here. But this last paragraph is really kind of silly and I don't feel like it can just let it slide. Yes, Two Plus Two, the company has integrity and credibility. But, no, that doesn't mean that all posters here get the benefit of that reputation. That's like saying that all the spam on the Yahoo finance message boards carries the credibility of Yahoo. Two Plus Two, the company, isn't responsible for the content - good or bad - posted on the forums, and likewise cannot receive credit or blame for that content. As the person Mason was responding to said, Two Plus Two, the company, provided the infrastructure that helped support the community members who teamed up to uncover this business. That's non-trivial and you can legimately be proud of that role. But let's not carried away and suggest that Two Plus Two, the company, had a significantly bigger role than that. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're mistaken. The AP thing was discussed all over the place, not just on 2+2. It was the reputation and the high standing in the poker community of this forum that amplified the discussion and made it too loud to ignore. Had it all taken place on rgp, for example, the effect would not have been the same. Pocket5s, to a much lesser extent, deserves some of the same credit. Without these forums, Nat and Adanthar and company would have been whining on some Yahoo feedback page and no one would have heard. Definitely, Nat and the others did all the brainstorming, but without two other things it probably would have all been for nothing: 1. the street cred 2+2 has built up in the poker community over the years, and 2. the raw xls file that proved to be the smoking gun. I think if any one of these three ingredients had been missing, AP would have had a good chance of getting away with everything. [/ QUOTE ] He says: As the person Mason was responding to said, Two Plus Two, the company, provided the infrastructure that helped support the community members who teamed up to uncover this business. That's non-trivial and you can legimately be proud of that role. And you respond: Definitely, Nat and the others did all the brainstorming, but without two other things it probably would have all been for nothing: 1. the street cred 2+2 has built up in the poker community over the years, and 2. the raw xls file that proved to be the smoking gun. I think if any one of these three ingredients had been missing, AP would have had a good chance of getting away with everything. You are basically saying that the fact that the AP discussions were able to take place on a reputable board helped the cause, which is true, but apart from 2p2 indirectly giving credibility to the discussions here, they have not done much else, atleast publicly. He says they provide the infrastructure to post and you argue that the provide the credibility of the forums. I see them as both the same. 
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#82
11-07-2007, 11:21 PM
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Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] All Two Plus Two did, was to provide the infrastructure and also the atmosphere for a group of posters of Two Plus Two to notice, investigate and alert. [/ QUOTE ] This is flat out wrong. What Two Plus Two has done over the past twenty years is to create an entity that must be taken seriously by everyone in the poker business. Also, we do have a very strong reputation for integrity. It is this framework which allows our posters to have the kind of influence they had in this situation. No other major entity in the industry, as far as I know, was able to step forward in the manner that we did and apply the kind of pressure that we did. Yes, you may argue that this was done by our posters and not by us. But it was done under our name which meant it needed to be taken very seriously and could not be sloughed off. [/ QUOTE ] I should probably just let this go, because, after all, we're all on the same side here. But this last paragraph is really kind of silly and I don't feel like it can just let it slide. Yes, Two Plus Two, the company has integrity and credibility. But, no, that doesn't mean that all posters here get the benefit of that reputation. That's like saying that all the spam on the Yahoo finance message boards carries the credibility of Yahoo. Two Plus Two, the company, isn't responsible for the content - good or bad - posted on the forums, and likewise cannot receive credit or blame for that content. As the person Mason was responding to said, Two Plus Two, the company, provided the infrastructure that helped support the community members who teamed up to uncover this business. That's non-trivial and you can legimately be proud of that role. But let's not carried away and suggest that Two Plus Two, the company, had a significantly bigger role than that. [/ QUOTE ] This is a great counter response
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#84
11-08-2007, 02:39 AM
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Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
Mason and 2+2:
Please keep the pressure on and don't let this go away quietly. While some people have obviously been paid off to help the company "move forward" by releasing all these wonderful statements of how AP is cleaned up now (ROFL), these people don't represent the feelings of the majority of the players who have been effected directly and indirectly by this Grand Theft and Fraud. Please continue to do the right thing and force these scumbags out of the poker industry. We will all benefit in the long run. Thanks again for not "selling out" when that would be the easiest and most profitable thing to do.
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#85
11-08-2007, 03:18 AM
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Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
[ QUOTE ]
WWhile some people have obviously been paid off to help the company "move forward" by releasing all these wonderful statements of how AP is cleaned up now (ROFL), these people don't represent the feelings of the majority of the players who have been effected directly and indirectly by this Grand Theft and Fraud. [/ QUOTE ] Who has been paid? And who says the company is cleaned up other than people like Gambling911 who want the ad money?
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#86
11-08-2007, 04:05 AM
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Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] WWhile some people have obviously been paid off to help the company "move forward" by releasing all these wonderful statements of how AP is cleaned up now (ROFL), these people don't represent the feelings of the majority of the players who have been effected directly and indirectly by this Grand Theft and Fraud. [/ QUOTE ] Who has been paid? And who says the company is cleaned up other than people like Gambling911 who want the ad money? [/ QUOTE ] G911 has proven themselves to be one of the bigest jokes in the industry. The article about how AP could be the safest place to play could turn even the strongest stomach.
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#87
11-08-2007, 04:09 AM
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Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Second, Absolute has apparently agreed to allow Bluff Magazine and Pocket Fives to review the findings of the investigation without a similar arrangement for Two Plus Two. This seems strange considering Two Plus Two’s role in uncovering and discussing this situation. [/ QUOTE ] It's kind of funny how when Nat was considering whether to go down to Costa Rica "as a representative for twoplustwo", Mason was very quick to point out that "I'm sorry but you do not represent Two Plus Two. That authorization can only from me." However, when it comes to taking credit for uncovering the scandal, he's happy to have all the credit associated with the "Two Plus Two" name. [/ QUOTE ] QFT [/ QUOTE ] FYP Don't have anything against Mason, but he did make sure 2+2, the company, was prominent in his post, and it was a bit overstated. I can't seem to find any other reason for his posting, unless this is laying ground work before yanking all Absolute adverts.
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#88
11-08-2007, 08:35 AM
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Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Second, Absolute has apparently agreed to allow Bluff Magazine and Pocket Fives to review the findings of the investigation without a similar arrangement for Two Plus Two. This seems strange considering Two Plus Two’s role in uncovering and discussing this situation. [/ QUOTE ] It's kind of funny how when Nat was considering whether to go down to Costa Rica "as a representative for twoplustwo", Mason was very quick to point out that "I'm sorry but you do not represent Two Plus Two. That authorization can only from me." However, when it comes to taking credit for uncovering the scandal, he's happy to have all the credit associated with the "Two Plus Two" name. [/ QUOTE ] QFT [/ QUOTE ] FYP Don't have anything against Mason, but he did make sure 2+2, the company, was prominent in his post, and it was a bit overstated. I can't seem to find any other reason for his posting, unless this is laying ground work before yanking all Absolute adverts. [/ QUOTE ] I find your and the majority of posts in this subject irrelevant, nitpicking and unfairly speculative. I can't find any reason why people that want to investigate Absolute Poker would go around anxiously asking themself if they are worthy. Just do it, dammit. Mason clearly states that he has an interest in "the fair play of the game". If you are not able to find this among the reasons, we do have a problem. But I am quite sure you and the other posters of these speculations are a minority.
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#89
11-08-2007, 10:31 AM
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Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
I'm not surprised at AP's stance. They have everything to lose and nothing to gain from allowing a truly independent investigation at this point. As the situation is playing out now they appear not to have been hurt with regards to traffic and ultimately profit. Why would they agree to terms that just might change that situation?
AP's level of arrogance can only increase now knowing that they can openly demonstrate internal corruption and deceit without risking their cash cow. This in the past was a key argument for self policing versus a requirement for regulation in the industry. I'm very surprised the damage to AP from this scandal isn't higher. It stands to reason that 2+2 and the other poker communities do not have the power/influence over the players that they/we thought. It really disappoints me that I now believe that formal regulation would be a step in the right direction.
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#90
11-08-2007, 10:38 AM
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Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
They'll be smarter next time around. Don't worry, they probably aren't going to get caught again. Not like it would matter if they did.
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