Three SLAG hands

RemyXO · #1 07-04-2007, 02:23 AM

Continuing on the SLAG Holdem topic , now down to the nitty-gritty via hand histories.

In all three, the villains are known tricky aggressive players. The lines I used are non-standard, and may be considered retarded. Fire away!

[b] HAND #1 [b]
Here I tried to screwplay the villain on a harmless board. Wen to calldown when he 3-bet. Anyone who gusses his holdings is a champ.

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$0.1 Limit Hold'em - 8 players
Converted by DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (5.40 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button raises, Hero calls.

River: (10.70 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.70 BB

HAND #2
Change-up in slowplaying a monster. I bet out the flop, hoping (correctly) to get raised. Could I have extracted more bets here?

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em - 9 players
Converted by DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.00 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.00 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 8.00 BB

HAND #3
Check-raising and smooth-calling 3-bet. My thinking - an ace is betting my a$$ hard here. I check-raise to represent flush, he won't believe. Donk turn is not goot, IMHO - should have C/Red again.

FullTilt Poker $0.50/$1 Limit Hold'em - 9 players
Converted by DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.00 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

BigBadBabar · #2 07-04-2007, 02:29 AM

hand 1 i often play that way
but it looks like you got owned anyway

hand 2 ditto, this is a fine alternate line and one people use a lot with sets. you got an extra bet out of his whatever, nh

hand 3 just cap the flop and lead out turn and riv. any big club/two pair/set/lower flush is coming along anyway. if you try to c/r the turn he will usually just check behind.

BigBadBabar · #3 07-04-2007, 02:31 AM

hand 2 i almost want to call and donk the river again just to screw with him, lol

but that is me being results oriented; 3betting is better in case he actually has something

BigBadBabar · #4 07-04-2007, 02:32 AM

by alternate lines do you just mean not often used by you in the past or not common at this limit/full ring in general?

BigBadBabar · #5 07-04-2007, 02:34 AM

it does seem like a lot of players in the fulltilt fr games are much more aggrostupid than on stars, when i was on there recently, so your trying lines is a good thing to figure out what works best and if you can induce them to spew more.

Aaron W. · #6 07-04-2007, 02:36 AM

Hand 1 is fine even though it looks like you were outflopped.

Hand 2 is meh. I'm not a huge fan of turn donking, so I would have either 3-bet the flop or check-raised the turn.

I don't like hand 3. I would have just bet the flop and just kept firing. I can't imagine that check-raising gives you much more action than just leading out. He might be inclined to cap the flop with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (for a free card), especially if his kicker is paired.

RemyXO · #7 07-04-2007, 02:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
by alternate lines do you just mean not often used by you in the past or not common at this limit/full ring in general?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's both. For example, if H1 and H2 were posted by themselves and out of SLAG context, 90% of the of the replies would be - WTF, JAM AND CAP THE FLOP! BET FOR VALUE!

I guess I used these lines before, but for different reasons. ere I am conciously tryng to turn their aggression against them. Poker Aikido, so to speak [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

RemyXO · #8 07-04-2007, 03:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is fine even though it looks like you were outflopped.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. What else can he be raising preflop raiser with, given that I was not outflopped? Remember - these are aaaaaaagggggggrrrrrrooooooo! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like hand 3. I would have just bet the flop and just kept firing. I can't imagine that check-raising gives you much more action than just leading out. He might be inclined to cap the flop with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (for a free card), especially if his kicker is paired.

[/ QUOTE ]

Respectfully disagree. Accept this as a fact - the hand will be bet for me on the flop. Both players are SLAGs. If they caught a piece of it, they are betting. If they didn't, one of them (most likely last to act) will feel morally obliged to take a stab at it. If I am real lucky, it's 2 bets to me on the flop.

Now, let's do math
(1) Villain doesn't have anything and we bet out.
Most of the time, I am not getting any more bets. Maybe 10% of the time he will raise/fold the turn as a stupidaggro play.
+0.5 SB

(2) Villain doesn't have anything and we check/raise
And they will. They will sometimes even call the check-raise for whatever metagame and image reasons.
+1.5 SB

(3) Villan has an ace or a high club and we bet out.
First, realize how slim a chance it is that he's holding what we hope he is. 6 cards out of the deck. Ace is even more unlikely, since there was no raise preflop. Let's be generous and assign it 10% probability. He raises and calls down.
7SB * 10% = 0.7SB

(4) Villan has an ace or a high club and we C/R.
Same logic - 10% probablility. Since he's a SLAG, he will usually 3-bet and we can cap. He calls down from there.

8SB * 10% = 0.8SB

So, betting out ~ 0.65 SB per hand
Check-raising ~ 1.15 SB per hand

My mistake in hand 3 was not realizing fast enough that his 3-bet means an ace or high club and he ain't going anywhere. I should have capped and extorted one more SB.

BigBadBabar · #9 07-04-2007, 03:16 AM

remy you are not taking into account that lags or slags or whatever you want to call them might be overaggro but they're not usually tremendously stupid ie raising and calling down with queen high. if you pull certain moves that send off certain signals, well, you might lose customers, or keep them, that's the whole point of those different lines and learning when each one applies is very useful. just assuming guys are gonna go nuts for you isn't always safe.

Xhad · #10 07-04-2007, 03:24 AM

hand 1 is not a screwplay but against an aggressive villain it's ok

hand 2 flop is close between bet and check. As played, your line is great against someone who is willing to raise/calldown without trips, otherwise I'd 3bet the flop and fire turn if he flat calls.

Hand 3 however is bad. The problem is that once you put in the next bet (be it a flop cap or turn donk) your hand looks like exactly what it is and you let him find this out as cheaply as possible.