Slowplay?

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
There was an excellent thread about a year ago about a similiar situation - KK in position against an A-high flop. I'm too lazy to look for it right now;maybe later.

A couple of good posters commented that there was no reason to bet the flop - only better hands are calling you, you put yourself in a position to let a good player c/r you (with or without an A), and there aren't many free cards that can hurt you.

Similar to WA/WB strategy, you would make sure that one bet went in on each of the big streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

link? this is more along the lines of what i was trying to do.

[SeaEagle]

Well, I looked through every post w/ KK in the title between 10 and 24 months old and didn't find it.

At any rate, I believe the logic is sound. Against weaker players who aren't folding underpairs to a single over card, I like a flop bet. Against the opponent you describe, I like a flop check for the reasons proposed.

To be honest, I probably bet my KK way too often here.

[bernie]

Not exactly a slowplay.

WA/WB. -HU.

You don't want a smaller PP to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
would it be better to b/c the flop, call the turn and fold the river UI if he fires again?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to fold the river, you probably shouldn't call the turn. If you bet the flop, and he c/r's, he could be doing it with a smaller pair testing you. In that case, why 3 bet it and get him to fold a possible 2 outer? You'll likely end up just calling his flop raise and calling him out. (read depending)

No overcards can hurt you and you won't get a better hand to fold. No biggie to just call this out if he bets the turn.

It gets a bit more tricky if you had something like JJ or TT.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
First problem- a check gives you no info. Usually in that situation- if you get by the flop with just a check-call, you are either up against top set or an underpair. Either way- continue to bet the turn AND river. The ace looks as bad to him as it does you if he has an underpair, so give credit to his check-raise, but don't let the possiblity of it keep you from betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

What info do you really get by betting when this player is capable of putting a move on the flop, or, letting you bet your lesser hand out?

Although, by betting, if he just calls, then you can check behind on the turn if checked to.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
(1) you might win the pot right there.
(2) if he puts in a c/r you 3 bet and you should know pretty quickly where you are, costing only 1.5 BBs compared to calling down if he's ahead (and making a nice pot if he's not)
(3)if he smooth calls and checks you can call any riverbet and see the showdown for 1.5 BBs
(4) if he smooth calls, you can fold to a turn donk bet as there are no draws on the board and it looks like a monster (I'm most unsure about this situation... is this a calldown??)


[/ QUOTE ]

1- Not really worried about winning the pot this early.

2- Why would you want to 3 bet this flop if he'll fold a lesser hand, with near minimal outs, in doing it? If you call his c/r, what does he think you have that you just called his c/r with on this board?

3- not a bad line.

4- not sure I'd fold to a donk bet from this type of player.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Is your goal to go to showdown or to win the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't why you'd 3 bet the flop. You're not that concerned with actually 'winning' the pot on the flop. If you are, you're losing a bit of potential profit.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Kurt,

i think you're missing the point. this guy is not a moron. read his description. he is capable of bluffing. he is capable of folding a lower pp. he is ALSO valuebluffing alot. if he c/r the flop i get no info. he may just give it up, though. point is, the flop bet seems mandatory but i'm giving the cheapest card possible on a drawless board to what is usually a two outer. if i think it will increase the frequency that 2bb go in on the big streets by a worse hand it seems it would be well worth it. and he will never fold an ace to me so forget about that. 3betting a c/r by him is spew, plain and simple. thanks for the input, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your line about mandatory betting the flop is key here. You'd likely be betting the flop with many hands when checked to here. Many meaning lower pairs also. So if he c/r's you, if you had an A, you'd be calling it out anyways letting him bet off his chips.

I don't think it's a big deal to play it the same way. Although, he might not fire again on the river after you will seemingly be in call down mode once you call the turn. He might think you'll slide one off to the turn and then he'll bet the turn. But the river bet he may be figuring you'll call anyways so it may have a bit more value attached.

But since you just checked the flop, if he bets, just call him out.

b

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]
Kurt,

i think you're missing the point.

...

thanks for the input, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you appreciate it. I'm here to learn too; just trying to figure it out myself. And thanks bernie for your feedback too.

If anyone with search skillz can find that thread I'd love to read it too.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
Not exactly a slowplay.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, the relative value of my hand is not really changing and if i'm ahead it's sort of a slowplay. wa/wb is more appropriate, i will agree.