Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!

[Rottersod]

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Jimmy, changing this rule would help Daniel (and you). I don't think you should ever change a rule that would benefit certain players and hinder others. Showing cards during play of the hand has not been in tournaments for some time and I do not know why Daniel is making it out to appear that this is a new rule, changing it now would not make sense.

Matt

I would not be opposed to running a "special event" where you could show your cards, discuss what you had in your hand, or your opponents hand.

Matt

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But you run WPT's where the final table drastically tilts the advantage away from the good players to making it a complete crapshoot. I know that's not really your doing, but I don't think the reasoning for keeping it a rule as "it helps good players win more" is very good. Aren't you supposed to want to be a good player? What makes a good player good? It's not up to you to decide that. You should make it so the rules:

1) Keep poker to its roots.
2) Make it so no one gets special treatment or anyone gains an UNFAIR advantage (which is NOT the same thing you are saying now. I'm not advocating changing the rule because it makes it easier for good players, I'm just playing devil's advocate here).

I think the rule is fine as is now because it makes things easier, but saying that it should stay as is because it makes things easier on people who aren't as good as other players is just wrong.

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Well, at its root poker is a cash game and showing cards in a cash game is fine as it's everyone for themself. Tourney poker is a different situation where every player is playing for the same goal and you aren't playing table stakes. Every hand played has an effect on the overall outcome - some more so than others but cumulatively it adds up. If you also take into account the table talk that showing a card would generate you can see how the effects of just a few hands could dramatically alter the outcome.

[Matt Savage]

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Jimmy, changing this rule would help Daniel (and you). I don't think you should ever change a rule that would benefit certain players and hinder others. Showing cards during play of the hand has not been in tournaments for some time and I do not know why Daniel is making it out to appear that this is a new rule, changing it now would not make sense.

Matt

I would not be opposed to running a "special event" where you could show your cards, discuss what you had in your hand, or your opponents hand.

Matt

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But you run WPT's where the final table drastically tilts the advantage away from the good players to making it a complete crapshoot. I know that's not really your doing, but I don't think the reasoning for keeping it a rule as "it helps good players win more" is very good. Aren't you supposed to want to be a good player? What makes a good player good? It's not up to you to decide that. You should make it so the rules:

1) Keep poker to its roots.
2) Make it so no one gets special treatment or anyone gains an UNFAIR advantage (which is NOT the same thing you are saying now. I'm not advocating changing the rule because it makes it easier for good players, I'm just playing devil's advocate here).

I think the rule is fine as is now because it makes things easier, but saying that it should stay as is because it makes things easier on people who aren't as good as other players is just wrong.

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I am pretty sure today's player would NOT like to see poker "to it's roots" as you put it. I prefer to see a safer, cleaner, more pleasant environment with more integrity to play and compete. But poker back (before 1992 for me) in the day must have had its pluses as well but 90% of today's poker playing public was not around then.

Matt

PS you were two in 1992

[jogsxyz]

It's all about appearances. Doesn't matter whether there's colluding or not. It just looks bad. Some outsider will use this against poker.
Poker really needs to address staking. Too much players have percentages of other players within the same tournament.

[gobboboy]

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Jimmy, changing this rule would help Daniel (and you). I don't think you should ever change a rule that would benefit certain players and hinder others. Showing cards during play of the hand has not been in tournaments for some time and I do not know why Daniel is making it out to appear that this is a new rule, changing it now would not make sense.

Matt

I would not be opposed to running a "special event" where you could show your cards, discuss what you had in your hand, or your opponents hand.

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

But you run WPT's where the final table drastically tilts the advantage away from the good players to making it a complete crapshoot. I know that's not really your doing, but I don't think the reasoning for keeping it a rule as "it helps good players win more" is very good. Aren't you supposed to want to be a good player? What makes a good player good? It's not up to you to decide that. You should make it so the rules:

1) Keep poker to its roots.
2) Make it so no one gets special treatment or anyone gains an UNFAIR advantage (which is NOT the same thing you are saying now. I'm not advocating changing the rule because it makes it easier for good players, I'm just playing devil's advocate here).

I think the rule is fine as is now because it makes things easier, but saying that it should stay as is because it makes things easier on people who aren't as good as other players is just wrong.

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I am pretty sure today's player would NOT like to see poker "to it's roots" as you put it. I prefer to see a safer, cleaner, more pleasant environment with more integrity to play and compete. But poker back (before 1992 for me) in the day must have had its pluses as well but 90% of today's poker playing public was not around then.

Matt

PS you were two in 1992

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PS No, I was five. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[B Buddy]

As far as Daniel's specific example and general idea that a player should be able to show one card, or show both cards facing an all in bet, I think Daniel makes a good argument:

a. He said the rule was in place in the past and it did not create a lot of problems.

b. Collusion does not seem likely

c. It adds more skill to the game, which should be a good thing.

If it wasn't a problem in the past why was the rule changed, and if it's allowed in high stakes cash games, why won't it work in tournaments?

I would think that most tournament players would agree with Daniel but maybe somebody could put a poll to get a better feel for that or you could talk to more poker players.

[B Buddy]

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I would think that most tournament players would agree with Daniel but maybe somebody could put a poll to get a better feel for that or you could talk to more poker players.

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I just saw the results of the poll and about 2/3 of he people favored being able to show hole cards in a heads up pot in your poll. So apparently a lot of people would like to see the rule changed based off that poll.

[Rottersod]

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I would think that most tournament players would agree with Daniel but maybe somebody could put a poll to get a better feel for that or you could talk to more poker players.

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I just saw the results of the poll and about 2/3 of he people favored being able to show hole cards in a heads up pot in your poll. So apparently a lot of people would like to see the rule changed based off that poll.

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Actually, the fact that 1/3 of his fanboys chose the opposite is strong proof that they don't want to see it changed. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Jetto]

it is YOUR cards YOUR hand...do what you will.

[jogsxyz]

Internet qualifier on the bubble in a $10K buy-in event. All fold to qualifier in the SB. He has KK. Doesn't want 30% chance of busting out. Is it okay your him to go all in and show his two kings to the BB?

[Inyaface]

Hi Matt,
It's good to see directors taking an interest in what the players have to say.

A hand I viewed last year during the WSOP was 4 or 5 handed at a final table. My friend has just called a re-raise for over 90% of his chips preflop and it was clear the money was getting in (ie neither player was bad enough to fold getting 34294239847892 to 1). My friend then exposed his hand thinking the re-raise put him all in. This was in no way an angle and anyone watching the tournament could tell that. Yet my friend after winning the pot and doubling up was forced to sit a penalty. This ruling was terrible IMO. To penalize someone at the final table of a WSOP event for turning his hand over when the money was 100% getting in anyways is just unfair and goes against the spirit of the game.

Now I do agree that for logistical purposes one should not be able to expose their hand or any part of it if there is still action after them, but in this instance I don't know how the discretion of the tournament director did not come into play.

In general I feel this miscommunication between the rule makers, directors, and dealers who often do not know the rules, or who simply misapply them is a huge issue and needs to be addressed.

I was at the Monte Carlo Grand Finale last year and the tournament was run amazingly. This was the first big live tournament I had played. I guess I was spoiled because at the tournaments I have played since then, the dealers have been slow and uninformed, the tournament directors often have no clue what they are doing and the overall experience sucks. If I were a random casual player, whom I'm assuming the WSOP, EPT, WPT etc want to appeal to I would be much less inclined to keep playing these tournaments after seeing how they are often run.