Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt

[MarkGreb]

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Cases like this are precisely why we need regulated online gaming in the United States. If there was some government oversight to it, this would not be such an issue.

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You're absolutely correct.

The government was able to find WMD's in Iraq so they should be able to detect Bots....oh , wait a minute...NO THEY DIDN'T.

Why do people think getting the government involved in anything would make it better?

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Um, because there would be accountability. Sites would not be able to just confiscate your funds for absolutely whatever reason they want.

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Sure they would.

The T&C's we accepted when joining the various sites,without reading in most cases, give them this right.

[sethypooh21]

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The T&C's we accepted when joining the various sites,without reading in most cases, give them this right.

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This is incorrect as a matter of law. See my earlier posts in this thread.

[RIIT]

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The T&C's we accepted when joining the various sites,without reading in most cases, give them this right.

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This is incorrect as a matter of law. See my earlier posts in this thread.

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sethypooh21: This statement is correct only if you also presume a jurisdiction that would bring higher legal principles to bear upon the site TOS. I live in the U.S. and as much as I might like to believe that the power of America reaches everywhere - the facts are that it does not both physically and legally - and so if we're talking about the 3rd world jurisdiction of Wallaboomba then the risk to the player will be according to the practices there regardless of what the major national jurisdictions would want otherwise.

I agree with your statement completely in the context of major jurisdictions and I think there are more than a few instances of site TOS wording that would be struck down due to higher legal precepts.

However, even if we allow a context of say the state of Nevada and a major LV strip casino online site, there are still major problems involving policeability where the online game is concerned. The online game as it exists right now is NOT policeable in any real way above and beyond a "he said she said" level (as in the recent 2+2 threads). Real policeability means that the gaming authority has the ability to know what is true and what is not true such that they can sort through complaints and accusations from any entity involved - site, player, other, etc.

Here is a short list of complaints that are impossible to police at present:

1) Player complains that the site is skewing the shuffle.

A site can know they are shuffling honestly but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party. To really clue in here, just pause for a moment and compare what is possible with a live b&m shuffle and what is possible with a software shuffle where that software runs on a secure sever entirely under the control of the operator.

2) Player complains that the site is hinting house players.

A site can know they are properly containing all sensitive game information (i.e. all card info) but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party. To really clue in here, just pause for a moment and compare what is possible with a live b&m game and what is possible with a client/server setup where the client/server software and the internet connection between them is entirely within the control of the site operator.

3) Player complains that another player is using restricted software help (bots, trackers, calculators)

The other player can know they are playing according to the site TOS but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party.

4) Player complains that other players are colluding.

The other players can know they are playing according to the site TOS but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party.

Note that citing motive is not a reasonable defense against these accusations (i.e. the typical "The house has zero motive to cheat" argument posed many times here in 2+2 threads)

Items 3&4 can be resolved by striking all TOS wording that forbids those actions in the first place thus rendering the complaints as meaningless (popular? probably not. doable? yes very easily). The gaming authority doesn't have to lift a finger in these cases; problem solved.

Items 1&2 are much more serious and cannot be resolved with changes to the TOS because they have to do with that actual game mechanics themselves.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

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The T&C's we accepted when joining the various sites,without reading in most cases, give them this right.

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This is incorrect as a matter of law. See my earlier posts in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

sethypooh21: This statement is correct only if you also presume a jurisdiction that would bring higher legal principles to bear upon the site TOS. I live in the U.S. and as much as I might like to believe that the power of America reaches everywhere - the facts are that it does not both physically and legally - and so if we're talking about the 3rd world jurisdiction of Wallaboomba then the risk to the player will be according to the practices there regardless of what the major national jurisdictions would want otherwise.

I agree with your statement completely in the context of major jurisdictions and I think there are more than a few instances of site TOS wording that would be struck down due to higher legal precepts.

However, even if we allow a context of say the state of Nevada and a major LV strip casino online site, there are still major problems involving policeability where the online game is concerned. The online game as it exists right now is NOT policeable in any real way above and beyond a "he said she said" level (as in the recent 2+2 threads). Real policeability means that the gaming authority has the ability to know what is true and what is not true such that they can sort through complaints and accusations from any entity involved - site, player, other, etc.

Here is a short list of complaints that are impossible to police at present:

1) Player complains that the site is skewing the shuffle.

A site can know they are shuffling honestly but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party. To really clue in here, just pause for a moment and compare what is possible with a live b&m shuffle and what is possible with a software shuffle where that software runs on a secure sever entirely under the control of the operator.

2) Player complains that the site is hinting house players.

A site can know they are properly containing all sensitive game information (i.e. all card info) but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party. To really clue in here, just pause for a moment and compare what is possible with a live b&m game and what is possible with a client/server setup where the client/server software and the internet connection between them is entirely within the control of the site operator.

3) Player complains that another player is using restricted software help (bots, trackers, calculators)

The other player can know they are playing according to the site TOS but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party.

4) Player complains that other players are colluding.

The other players can know they are playing according to the site TOS but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party.

Note that citing motive is not a reasonable defense against these accusations (i.e. the typical "The house has zero motive to cheat" argument posed many times here in 2+2 threads)

Items 3&4 can be resolved by striking all TOS wording that forbids those actions in the first place thus rendering the complaints as meaningless (popular? probably not. doable? yes very easily). The gaming authority doesn't have to lift a finger in these cases; problem solved.

Items 1&2 are much more serious and cannot be resolved with changes to the TOS because they have to do with that actual game mechanics themselves.

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As to points one and two, I assume that there would be no actual evidence of skewing the deal or hinting house players so said cases would be summarily dismissed on motion. If there was indeed evidence of skewing or hinting, let the sun shine down on it for everyone to review.

B&M have operated in this environment for years--heavy regulation, and must be able to demostrate that they are above reproach. And they are making billions.

I believe that Stars and probably Party would welcome regulation, if it came hand in hand with credit card acceptance, easy cashouts, etc.

These are not insurmountable obstacles. Every industry that operates globally faces them. In fact, online poker is easier to regulate that most industries because the product --a fair game -- is forever recorded in the hand histories.

As for bots and the like, I think tthat everyone is in agreement that they shouldn't be used.

Try getting that kind of data or that kind of consensus on an issue on like say, the acceptable level of greenhouse gas emissions by automobiles.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

I would like to add one thought. Another aspect of heavy regulation is that there is an added assurance of a fair game. Only nuts really think live casinos cheat players in today's environment. Sure, every game against the house is -EV, but I have no doubt that the roulette wheels, the blackjack deck are not rigged or stacked in any way other than the odds offered are simply less than one to one.

Heavy regulation could bring this type of assurances to the online games that it does not necessarily enjoy, at least to the same extent as Vegas.

[RIIT]

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The T&C's we accepted when joining the various sites,without reading in most cases, give them this right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect as a matter of law. See my earlier posts in this thread.

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sethypooh21: This statement is correct only if you also presume a jurisdiction that would bring higher legal principles to bear upon the site TOS. I live in the U.S. and as much as I might like to believe that the power of America reaches everywhere - the facts are that it does not both physically and legally - and so if we're talking about the 3rd world jurisdiction of Wallaboomba then the risk to the player will be according to the practices there regardless of what the major national jurisdictions would want otherwise.

I agree with your statement completely in the context of major jurisdictions and I think there are more than a few instances of site TOS wording that would be struck down due to higher legal precepts.

However, even if we allow a context of say the state of Nevada and a major LV strip casino online site, there are still major problems involving policeability where the online game is concerned. The online game as it exists right now is NOT policeable in any real way above and beyond a "he said she said" level (as in the recent 2+2 threads). Real policeability means that the gaming authority has the ability to know what is true and what is not true such that they can sort through complaints and accusations from any entity involved - site, player, other, etc.

Here is a short list of complaints that are impossible to police at present:

1) Player complains that the site is skewing the shuffle.

A site can know they are shuffling honestly but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party. To really clue in here, just pause for a moment and compare what is possible with a live b&m shuffle and what is possible with a software shuffle where that software runs on a secure sever entirely under the control of the operator.

2) Player complains that the site is hinting house players.

A site can know they are properly containing all sensitive game information (i.e. all card info) but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party. To really clue in here, just pause for a moment and compare what is possible with a live b&m game and what is possible with a client/server setup where the client/server software and the internet connection between them is entirely within the control of the site operator.

3) Player complains that another player is using restricted software help (bots, trackers, calculators)

The other player can know they are playing according to the site TOS but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party.

4) Player complains that other players are colluding.

The other players can know they are playing according to the site TOS but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party.

Note that citing motive is not a reasonable defense against these accusations (i.e. the typical "The house has zero motive to cheat" argument posed many times here in 2+2 threads)

Items 3&4 can be resolved by striking all TOS wording that forbids those actions in the first place thus rendering the complaints as meaningless (popular? probably not. doable? yes very easily). The gaming authority doesn't have to lift a finger in these cases; problem solved.

Items 1&2 are much more serious and cannot be resolved with changes to the TOS because they have to do with that actual game mechanics themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

As to points one and two, I assume that there would be no actual evidence of skewing the deal or hinting house players so said cases would be summarily dismissed on motion. If there was indeed evidence of skewing or hinting, let the sun shine down on it for everyone to review.

B&M have operated in this environment for years--heavy regulation, and must be able to demostrate that they are above reproach. And they are making billions.

I believe that Stars and probably Party would welcome regulation, if it came hand in hand with credit card acceptance, easy cashouts, etc.

These are not insurmountable obstacles. Every industry that operates globally faces them. In fact, online poker is easier to regulate that most industries because the product --a fair game -- is forever recorded in the hand histories.

As for bots and the like, I think tthat everyone is in agreement that they shouldn't be used.

Try getting that kind of data or that kind of consensus on an issue on like say, the acceptable level of greenhouse gas emissions by automobiles.

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El_Hombre_Grande: Well it seems you're making my case for me here.

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As to points one and two, I assume that there would be no actual evidence of skewing the deal or hinting house players so said cases would be summarily dismissed on motion. If there was indeed evidence of skewing or hinting, let the sun shine down on it for everyone to review.

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Exactly; you've simply stated my point with different words. It's not possible to collect evidence against an online site for items 1&2; they are in fact quite IMMUNE to getting caught in the act. They can in fact hint a house player at will on the other side of the planet and there's nothing anybody can do about it.

In contrast, a live b&m operator is not even close to being IMMUNE but you seem to be trying to suggest that the security aspects are the same for both environments; they most definitely are NOT. An online poker server has plenary god-like power over the entire game quite unlike a live dealer who does NOT.

Compare the ability of a human dealer being able to select the exact composition of the first 30 cards, to the ability of software to do the same.

Compare the ability of a human dealer to then privately/secretly communicate/hint a house player, to the ability of a poker server that has a secure encrypted connection/conversation with each player at the table.

The facts are that right now any online site can hint a house player at will and there is zero chance of getting caught - they are 100% IMMUNE. The same cannot be said for the live game. The live game has a very acceptable level of policeability; the online games does NOT.

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B&M have operated in this environment for years--heavy regulation, and must be able to demostrate that they are above reproach. And they are making billions.

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I totally agree. But do not attempt to treat the security aspects of the online game and the live game as equals, for doing so makes you appear uninformed at best or biased at worst.

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I believe that Stars and probably Party would welcome regulation, if it came hand in hand with credit card acceptance, easy cashouts, etc.

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You have the "welcoming" issue backwards here; it matters little what any operator "wants" or "welcomes"; what I am telling you is that the serious gaming authorities will say "NO" to the current online game as it exists right now and if they do not agree to police it then that game CANNOT legally be offered in that jurisdiction; what part of this do you not understand? Gambling is legal in many places; but this does not mean that all games get approved.

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These are not insurmountable obstacles. Every industry that operates globally faces them. In fact, online poker is easier to regulate that most industries because the product --a fair game -- is forever recorded in the hand histories.

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Hand histories are certainly a record of what happened; but they have zero power to prove that a site skewed the deck or hinted a house player. Consider the power of each site to create as many prop accounts as desired. Now describe how you plan on proving hints spread across many accounts over many months/years.

So when a jurisdiction like Nevada asks a large online site what their plan is to prove they're not skewing shuffles or hinting players and the site responds with "We can't prove our honesty; everone will just have to trust us", you're saying the gaming authority will just say "Ok, we trust you to be honest as long as you cross your heart and hope to die - step on a tack break your mothers back"

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As for bots and the like, I think tthat everyone is in agreement that they shouldn't be used.

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Same issues with players as with sites but compounded an a scale equal to the player population. In a live setting the players are visible to one and all (including house cameras). On the internet, player behavior is entirely shrouded in privacy other than their actual actions within the game. Live operators have the right to refuse play to anybody for any reason but they cannot confiscate money unless there is hard eyewitness evidence of cheating the mechanics of the game; such evidence is impossible to collect online. You'd probably never see a situation where a major gaming jurisdiction would approve terms and conditions that allowed a site operator to confiscate account funds for any reason; close the account and return the money? yes. close the account and keep the money? no.

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Try getting that kind of data or that kind of consensus on an issue on like say, the acceptable level of greenhouse gas emissions by automobiles.

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Consensus does not matter to major gaming authorities; they're not trying to win a popularity contest; their job is to effectively police gambling games. If an operator cannot show them how to do that then the game will NOT be approved. What you want, what I want, what the online site wants is not important.

[jack21221]

RITT, I fail to see what point you're attempting to make. Do you think online poker should remain illegal because it's difficult to prove that a site isn't rigging decks just for the hell of it?

You're going on many tangents here, none of which have to do with the US government adopting similar regulations with regards to online poker as the rest of the civilized world.

[RIIT]

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RITT, I fail to see what point you're attempting to make. Do you think online poker should remain illegal because it's difficult to prove that a site isn't rigging decks just for the hell of it?

You're going on many tangents here, none of which have to do with the US government adopting similar regulations with regards to online poker as the rest of the civilized world.

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jack21221: The house doesn't actually need to skew the deck as long as they have the power to hint house players. In a 10-handed game, a fair deck will favor each player an average of 10% of hands dealt. If you're a prop player then it's a simple matter of patience to wait for the server to hint you. If you're a really good prop player then you will intentionally lose some hands to gain statistical cover.

My Point? To challenge the mindset that innocently views the live and online game security issues as equal. They are not equal and never will be. The live game is policeable by 3rd parties; the online game is not policeable by 3rd parties. Sanctionable? yes. Policeable? no. The Kahnawake Gaming Commission is nothing more than a sanctioning entity. They have zero power to police the honesty of an operator where the game mechanics are concerned.

So the issue doesn't have anything to do with what I want or what you want. It has to do with the larger context of real world facts involving any scenario where online poker would operate within a serious gaming jurisdiction.

Such scenarios have already been suggested several times within this thread. I'm challenging the underlying assumption that such a scenario is even possible let alone better than what we have now.

Legalizing online gaming and approving a specific online game are two entirely different matters. Any U.S. state can legalize online gaming right now (fyi - they don't need federal permission to do this). But legalizing online gaming within a state does not automatically mean that every online game will automatically get approved for regulation by the gaming authority. The state of Nevada can legalize online gaming right now but if their gaming authority declares a game to be "unpoliceable" then that game cannot happen period. The NGC will not sanction any game that is unpoliceable where as the KGC will sanction pretty much anything.

[Josem]

One would think that if Governments are able to regulate and monitor the fairness of computer programs used to operate slot machines, the same Governments are able to regulate and monitor the fairness of computer programs used to operate online poker games.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

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The T&C's we accepted when joining the various sites,without reading in most cases, give them this right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect as a matter of law. See my earlier posts in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

sethypooh21: This statement is correct only if you also presume a jurisdiction that would bring higher legal principles to bear upon the site TOS. I live in the U.S. and as much as I might like to believe that the power of America reaches everywhere - the facts are that it does not both physically and legally - and so if we're talking about the 3rd world jurisdiction of Wallaboomba then the risk to the player will be according to the practices there regardless of what the major national jurisdictions would want otherwise.

I agree with your statement completely in the context of major jurisdictions and I think there are more than a few instances of site TOS wording that would be struck down due to higher legal precepts.

However, even if we allow a context of say the state of Nevada and a major LV strip casino online site, there are still major problems involving policeability where the online game is concerned. The online game as it exists right now is NOT policeable in any real way above and beyond a "he said she said" level (as in the recent 2+2 threads). Real policeability means that the gaming authority has the ability to know what is true and what is not true such that they can sort through complaints and accusations from any entity involved - site, player, other, etc.

Here is a short list of complaints that are impossible to police at present:

1) Player complains that the site is skewing the shuffle.

A site can know they are shuffling honestly but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party. To really clue in here, just pause for a moment and compare what is possible with a live b&m shuffle and what is possible with a software shuffle where that software runs on a secure sever entirely under the control of the operator.

2) Player complains that the site is hinting house players.

A site can know they are properly containing all sensitive game information (i.e. all card info) but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party. To really clue in here, just pause for a moment and compare what is possible with a live b&m game and what is possible with a client/server setup where the client/server software and the internet connection between them is entirely within the control of the site operator.

3) Player complains that another player is using restricted software help (bots, trackers, calculators)

The other player can know they are playing according to the site TOS but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party.

4) Player complains that other players are colluding.

The other players can know they are playing according to the site TOS but they cannot prove it to a 3rd party.

Note that citing motive is not a reasonable defense against these accusations (i.e. the typical "The house has zero motive to cheat" argument posed many times here in 2+2 threads)

Items 3&4 can be resolved by striking all TOS wording that forbids those actions in the first place thus rendering the complaints as meaningless (popular? probably not. doable? yes very easily). The gaming authority doesn't have to lift a finger in these cases; problem solved.

Items 1&2 are much more serious and cannot be resolved with changes to the TOS because they have to do with that actual game mechanics themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

As to points one and two, I assume that there would be no actual evidence of skewing the deal or hinting house players so said cases would be summarily dismissed on motion. If there was indeed evidence of skewing or hinting, let the sun shine down on it for everyone to review.

B&M have operated in this environment for years--heavy regulation, and must be able to demostrate that they are above reproach. And they are making billions.

I believe that Stars and probably Party would welcome regulation, if it came hand in hand with credit card acceptance, easy cashouts, etc.

These are not insurmountable obstacles. Every industry that operates globally faces them. In fact, online poker is easier to regulate that most industries because the product --a fair game -- is forever recorded in the hand histories.

As for bots and the like, I think tthat everyone is in agreement that they shouldn't be used.

Try getting that kind of data or that kind of consensus on an issue on like say, the acceptable level of greenhouse gas emissions by automobiles.

[/ QUOTE ]

El_Hombre_Grande: Well it seems you're making my case for me here.

[ QUOTE ]
As to points one and two, I assume that there would be no actual evidence of skewing the deal or hinting house players so said cases would be summarily dismissed on motion. If there was indeed evidence of skewing or hinting, let the sun shine down on it for everyone to review.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly; you've simply stated my point with different words. It's not possible to collect evidence against an online site for items 1&2; they are in fact quite IMMUNE to getting caught in the act. They can in fact hint a house player at will on the other side of the planet and there's nothing anybody can do about it.

In contrast, a live b&m operator is not even close to being IMMUNE but you seem to be trying to suggest that the security aspects are the same for both environments; they most definitely are NOT. An online poker server has plenary god-like power over the entire game quite unlike a live dealer who does NOT.

Compare the ability of a human dealer being able to select the exact composition of the first 30 cards, to the ability of software to do the same.

Compare the ability of a human dealer to then privately/secretly communicate/hint a house player, to the ability of a poker server that has a secure encrypted connection/conversation with each player at the table.

The facts are that right now any online site can hint a house player at will and there is zero chance of getting caught - they are 100% IMMUNE. The same cannot be said for the live game. The live game has a very acceptable level of policeability; the online games does NOT.

[ QUOTE ]
B&M have operated in this environment for years--heavy regulation, and must be able to demostrate that they are above reproach. And they are making billions.

[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree. But do not attempt to treat the security aspects of the online game and the live game as equals, for doing so makes you appear uninformed at best or biased at worst.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that Stars and probably Party would welcome regulation, if it came hand in hand with credit card acceptance, easy cashouts, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have the "welcoming" issue backwards here; it matters little what any operator "wants" or "welcomes"; what I am telling you is that the serious gaming authorities will say "NO" to the current online game as it exists right now and if they do not agree to police it then that game CANNOT legally be offered in that jurisdiction; what part of this do you not understand? Gambling is legal in many places; but this does not mean that all games get approved.

[ QUOTE ]
These are not insurmountable obstacles. Every industry that operates globally faces them. In fact, online poker is easier to regulate that most industries because the product --a fair game -- is forever recorded in the hand histories.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hand histories are certainly a record of what happened; but they have zero power to prove that a site skewed the deck or hinted a house player. Consider the power of each site to create as many prop accounts as desired. Now describe how you plan on proving hints spread across many accounts over many months/years.

So when a jurisdiction like Nevada asks a large online site what their plan is to prove they're not skewing shuffles or hinting players and the site responds with "We can't prove our honesty; everone will just have to trust us", you're saying the gaming authority will just say "Ok, we trust you to be honest as long as you cross your heart and hope to die - step on a tack break your mothers back"

[ QUOTE ]
As for bots and the like, I think tthat everyone is in agreement that they shouldn't be used.

[/ QUOTE ]
Same issues with players as with sites but compounded an a scale equal to the player population. In a live setting the players are visible to one and all (including house cameras). On the internet, player behavior is entirely shrouded in privacy other than their actual actions within the game. Live operators have the right to refuse play to anybody for any reason but they cannot confiscate money unless there is hard eyewitness evidence of cheating the mechanics of the game; such evidence is impossible to collect online. You'd probably never see a situation where a major gaming jurisdiction would approve terms and conditions that allowed a site operator to confiscate account funds for any reason; close the account and return the money? yes. close the account and keep the money? no.

[ QUOTE ]
Try getting that kind of data or that kind of consensus on an issue on like say, the acceptable level of greenhouse gas emissions by automobiles.

[/ QUOTE ]
Consensus does not matter to major gaming authorities; they're not trying to win a popularity contest; their job is to effectively police gambling games. If an operator cannot show them how to do that then the game will NOT be approved. What you want, what I want, what the online site wants is not important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not the uninformed one. As for bias, go buy a tinfoil hat. Maybe I'm the one skewing the deck. LOL

You are clearly uninformed about how the gaming commision works. They have 24-7 access to all records and all floor operations. To deny access is to risk your license.

You have made the mistake of assuming the current state of affairs is not only the way its is, but the way it must be. In other words, you lack imagination.

Every single action taken on a server can be recorded and reviewed. In other words, while it may be true that the current system is "shrouded in privacy", it doesn't have to be. The sites can be required to record everything, always, and immediately surrender the reocrds to an investigator 24-7. This can be accomplished extremely cheaply, at least compared to the sums expended on policing live casinos.

The records of who has played, when, and for how much, will also be available 24-7. If PS wants to claim that 78,000 refugees from Darfur were beating the [censored] out a bunch of Americans, Europeans, and Aussies, in order to divert money into a gigantic PS slushfund, I suspect they will get caught. Moreover, I suspect that they will never try. Regulated online, world wide poker will be a cash cow so big that slowing down to commit fraud would cost you money.