NL25, hero has a Premium Hand and faces a 4BB bet and a raise to 8BBs

[Adrian20XX]

Hi,

I wanted feedback of this hand.

* What would you do with each Premium Hand and why? (you can put percentages if you want a mixed strategy)
* What is the range that you give to the 3-bettor? (no reads on him).

TIA & Regards ...


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($15)
UTG ($12.35)
UTG+1 ($16.25)
MP1 ($17)
MP2 ($27.85)
MP3 ($18.85)
CO ($6.35)
Hero ($22.05)
SB ($43.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with PREMIUM HAND.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero ???

[WantToLearn]

I am hardly ever completely readless,as first thing I do when I come to a table is to check out all the big stacks - I want to know how many tables they are playing. I have never seen a good player (speaking in NL25 terms) playing one table at a time, I have never seen some who was playing 12 tables w/o some clue to preflop hand value, and so on. "Player not found" is not so good, but at least it means someone has spent some thought about the client, so most of them are at least trying to think about the game too.

That said - MP3 makes a weird min-raise and it makes me think of badly played AA/KK ("stay in the hand please! put some money in the pot please!").

I want AA or KK here to come along.

[BotOnTilt]

So its no longer enough that we put villains on hand ranges without even having reads, now we have to guess Hero's range too?

[Berge20]

What is MP2 like?

[Adrian20XX]

[ QUOTE ]
I am hardly ever completely readless,as first thing I do when I come to a table is to check out all the big stacks - I want to know how many tables they are playing. I have never seen a good player (speaking in NL25 terms) playing one table at a time, I have never seen some who was playing 12 tables w/o some clue to preflop hand value, and so on. "Player not found" is not so good, but at least it means someone has spent some thought about the client, so most of them are at least trying to think about the game too.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good point, the problem is how to analyze 9 players from 12 tables :-)

[ QUOTE ]

That said - MP3 makes a weird min-raise and it makes me think of badly played AA/KK ("stay in the hand please! put some money in the pot please!").

I want AA or KK here to come along.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you fold everything but AA or KK?
You fold QQ and medium pairs?
What would you do with AA, and what would you do with KK?


[ QUOTE ]
So its no longer enough that we put villains on hand ranges without even having reads, now we have to guess Hero's range too?

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that in this hand I had a moment of clarity (at least is what I think), and I saw how I was playing different premium hands in here, and hence decided to take a new line.

I think that how you play one specific premium hand has to have a correlation with how you play others, so that's the reason for the hero's range.

[CaptVimes]

I think in this situation you can call with a lot of hands, you can pretty much put MP3 on a fairly narrow range of hands, if you can get the original PFR to stay in the hand your just adding more dead money to the pot. Why, because it's really likely that you will get paid off in this spot if you outflop your opponents.

Generally reraise with AA/KK

[TheBad]

This really depends. I would call with 9Ts if both villains are aggressive enough and there is a a chance that one of the blinds will call too. Every PP is a call for set value, including JJ,QQ and against some regulars even KK. AA is a big raise.

MP3s range usually is pretty big here.

[Adrian20XX]

[ QUOTE ]
What is MP2 like?

[/ QUOTE ]

No read on MP2 neither :-(

Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

So this was what crossed my mind at that point:
With Aces or Kings, I raise big here.
With QQ or JJ I probably call.
With a pair, I might call for set mining value.
AK, I can call, fold or push it on rare ocassions.
AX, I fold.

So I saw my pushing range only consisted of AK on some situations, and that I see the pushes here as weak so others will probably see my push as weak.

So, I pushed, and got called by JJ.

Now I remember Sklansky's words, against raise and re-raise, push Aces or Kings, and fold everything else.

So, you still prefer the raise and not the push with AA? Why? I think we should push here at least a certain percentage of the time with AA or KK.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($15)
UTG ($12.35)
UTG+1 ($16.25)
MP1 ($17)
MP2 ($27.85)
<font color="#C00000">MP3 ($18.85)</font>
CO ($6.35)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($22.05)</font>
SB ($43.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $22.05</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $16.85 (All-In).

Flop: ($39.05) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: ($39.05) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($39.05) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $39.05

Results in white below:
MP3 has Jc Jd (one pair, jacks).
Hero has As Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $42.25.

[RapidEvolution]

[ QUOTE ]
I think in this situation you can call with a lot of hands, you can pretty much put MP3 on a fairly narrow range of hands, if you can get the original PFR to stay in the hand your just adding more dead money to the pot. Why, because it's really likely that you will get paid off in this spot if you outflop your opponents.

Generally reraise with AA/KK

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure I agree with the first part of this. We're putting in just under 10% of our starting stack and there's a chance that MP2 could reraise and push us off. If stacks were deeper and we had a read that MP2 was most likely to call here (instead of raising or folding), I'd be all for it.

To answer the OP, stack sizes are such that calling to set-mine is marginal. I'd probably push KK/AA and fold everything else if I had no reads. My reasoning is that we're more likely to get QQ/KK (and maybe JJ) to come along preflop than we are are on the flop because

a) An overcard on the flop is essentially killing action from JJ/QQ.

b) Villain may put you on AK, thinking that you'd make a smaller 4bet with AA to keep people in (like he did with his hand).

[WantToLearn]

[ QUOTE ]
To answer the OP, stack sizes are such that calling to set-mine is marginal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I daresay it´s -EV. Pure setmining, that is, w/o hope for making the best hand as an overpair.

I think the odds against making a set are like 8.5:1. Plus, on rare occasions we loose to a higher set. Plus, sometimes the original raiser will reraise, either big (we have to fold) or small (we have to call again then if the sandwich villain doesn´t shove), so we need to win like estimated ~11 times our investment every time we make a set. That is $22 and more than the stack of the original raiser. I don´t setmine here.