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#1
09-22-2007, 08:14 AM
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Weird river raise. Now what
This is from last night so cant remember villains stats. But he was a bad LAG fish on the passive side preflop. So prolly about 40/15/1-1.5.
Whats most important? - Small pot - Idiot villain with a raise that makes no sense. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums) Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls. Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls. Turn: (4 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Hero checks, Button checks. River: (4 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero..? . 
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#3
09-22-2007, 08:25 AM
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Re: Weird river raise. Now what
Do you think he'll raise A8 or K8 here? If not, then I think this is an easy call. I actually think this is a call even if he will raise a hand like A8; you're going to get shown JT or whatever often enough to make it correct.
Do you always peel the flop here?
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#4
09-22-2007, 09:21 AM
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Re: Weird river raise. Now what
[ QUOTE ]
Do you always peel the flop here? [/ QUOTE ] Mostly. 7:1 with 6 cards to improve HU vs a wide range on a dry board against a bad player... If you are getting a free river with significant probability its a silly fold IMO. If he always 2nd barrels its a prolly a fold.
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#5
09-22-2007, 09:49 AM
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Re: Weird river raise. No what
[ QUOTE ]
Against a bad LAG i c/c this river. And I never fold here, but you already knew that. [/ QUOTE ] I think you gotta bet that river cuz lag is never folding Ace high and thats his most likely hand IMO cuz if he had total trash he would be more likely to bet the turn. His turn check tells me that he doesnt have much but his hand still has some kind of value cuz he doesnt want get checkraised, hence Ace high. Once raised on the river, I would call here cuz I dont get it. If the lag has A8, then he played this hand expertly IMO. Also I dont like this flop call. IMO, on this specific board I think check/raising will be better than calling.
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#6
09-22-2007, 09:58 AM
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Re: Weird river raise. No what
[ QUOTE ]
Also I dont like this flop call. IMO, on this specific board I think check/raising will be better than calling. [/ QUOTE ] I have been thinking about that. I have to admit I am not really sure. Against this player who will give a free card with Ax and Kx but prolly not fold them to aggression I think c/c has merit as you get a cheap shot at winning the the pot by improving compared to the more expensive c/r - bet semibluff
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#7
09-22-2007, 10:10 AM
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Re: Weird river raise. No what
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Also I dont like this flop call. IMO, on this specific board I think check/raising will be better than calling. [/ QUOTE ] I have been thinking about that. I have to admit I am not really sure. Against this player who will give a free card with Ax and Kx but prolly not fold them to aggression I think c/c has merit as you get a cheap shot at winning the the pot by improving compared to the more expensive c/r - bet semibluff [/ QUOTE ] You could be right. I am not positive that C/R is better than C/C but I think we find the answer to this one since all we have to do is make a few assumptions. 1) Put him on a range 2) Assume he never folds Ace high 3) Assume he will fold no pair no draw King high or worse on the turn 4) If he calls the turn we should check/fold the river IMO, cuz if someone takes this kind of pressure on the flop+turn on this specific board, they will not fold the river often enough to make a bluff profitable IMO. This means that we are investing 2BB's to make this play. 5) Also, assume that he never folds two undercards on the flop like JT. So we have to invest 2BB's here. So now we just need to find all the hands he'll fold on the turn and see if this percentage is high enough to make C/R worth it given these pot odds. One thing I ignored that is important is those times we hit a 9/8 on the river and outdraw Ax and when a decent pot that way.
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#8
09-22-2007, 11:22 AM
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Re: Weird river raise. No what
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also I dont like this flop call. IMO, on this specific board I think check/raising will be better than calling. [/ QUOTE ] I have been thinking about that. I have to admit I am not really sure. Against this player who will give a free card with Ax and Kx but prolly not fold them to aggression I think c/c has merit as you get a cheap shot at winning the the pot by improving compared to the more expensive c/r - bet semibluff [/ QUOTE ] You could be right. I am not positive that C/R is better than C/C but I think we find the answer to this one since all we have to do is make a few assumptions. 1) Put him on a range 2) Assume he never folds Ace high 3) Assume he will fold no pair no draw King high or worse on the turn 4) If he calls the turn we should check/fold the river IMO, cuz if someone takes this kind of pressure on the flop+turn on this specific board, they will not fold the river often enough to make a bluff profitable IMO. This means that we are investing 2BB's to make this play. 5) Also, assume that he never folds two undercards on the flop like JT. So we have to invest 2BB's here. So now we just need to find all the hands he'll fold on the turn and see if this percentage is high enough to make C/R worth it given these pot odds. One thing I ignored that is important is those times we hit a 9/8 on the river and outdraw Ax and when a decent pot that way. [/ QUOTE ] I am too lazy. Interesting spot tho. BTW it also matters how we play A4, 54s, A2 or whatever here. You should do the same with those hands as you do with 98 - if villain notices stuff like that. Against this idiot it prolly matters less
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#9
09-22-2007, 02:08 PM
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Re: Weird river raise. No what
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also I dont like this flop call. IMO, on this specific board I think check/raising will be better than calling. [/ QUOTE ] I have been thinking about that. I have to admit I am not really sure. Against this player who will give a free card with Ax and Kx but prolly not fold them to aggression I think c/c has merit as you get a cheap shot at winning the the pot by improving compared to the more expensive c/r - bet semibluff [/ QUOTE ] You could be right. I am not positive that C/R is better than C/C but I think we find the answer to this one since all we have to do is make a few assumptions. 1) Put him on a range 2) Assume he never folds Ace high 3) Assume he will fold no pair no draw King high or worse on the turn 4) If he calls the turn we should check/fold the river IMO, cuz if someone takes this kind of pressure on the flop+turn on this specific board, they will not fold the river often enough to make a bluff profitable IMO. This means that we are investing 2BB's to make this play. 5) Also, assume that he never folds two undercards on the flop like JT. So we have to invest 2BB's here. So now we just need to find all the hands he'll fold on the turn and see if this percentage is high enough to make C/R worth it given these pot odds. One thing I ignored that is important is those times we hit a 9/8 on the river and outdraw Ax and when a decent pot that way. [/ QUOTE ] I am too lazy. Interesting spot tho. BTW it also matters how we play A4, 54s, A2 or whatever here. You should do the same with those hands as you do with 98 - if villain notices stuff like that. Against this idiot it prolly matters less [/ QUOTE ] How do people at this level respond in general to check raises on dry boards? This seems to be everybody's favorite play lately. I'm always suspicious when a decent player does it and I tend to make them 3-barrel if they want it.
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#10
09-22-2007, 02:11 PM
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Re: Weird river raise. No what
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also I dont like this flop call. IMO, on this specific board I think check/raising will be better than calling. [/ QUOTE ] I have been thinking about that. I have to admit I am not really sure. Against this player who will give a free card with Ax and Kx but prolly not fold them to aggression I think c/c has merit as you get a cheap shot at winning the the pot by improving compared to the more expensive c/r - bet semibluff [/ QUOTE ] You could be right. I am not positive that C/R is better than C/C but I think we find the answer to this one since all we have to do is make a few assumptions. 1) Put him on a range 2) Assume he never folds Ace high 3) Assume he will fold no pair no draw King high or worse on the turn 4) If he calls the turn we should check/fold the river IMO, cuz if someone takes this kind of pressure on the flop+turn on this specific board, they will not fold the river often enough to make a bluff profitable IMO. This means that we are investing 2BB's to make this play. 5) Also, assume that he never folds two undercards on the flop like JT. So we have to invest 2BB's here. So now we just need to find all the hands he'll fold on the turn and see if this percentage is high enough to make C/R worth it given these pot odds. One thing I ignored that is important is those times we hit a 9/8 on the river and outdraw Ax and when a decent pot that way. [/ QUOTE ] I am too lazy. Interesting spot tho. BTW it also matters how we play A4, 54s, A2 or whatever here. You should do the same with those hands as you do with 98 - if villain notices stuff like that. Against this idiot it prolly matters less [/ QUOTE ] How do people at this level respond in general to check raises on dry boards? This seems to be everybody's favorite play lately. I'm always suspicious when a decent player does it and I tend to make them 3-barrel if they want it. [/ QUOTE ] Good players knows whats going on and will not fold a lot if anything. Bad players are bad players. It doesnt really matter if the 50/15 fish plays 0.02/0.04 or 10/20. He is an idiot and wont notice anything.
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