NLTAP week #5

Superman26gt · #1 06-19-2007, 07:24 AM

No Limit Hold'em
Theory and Practice
Week 5

Absolute
and Relative Position
(pg.91)

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Absolute position is position relative to the button. The closer you are to the button, the better your absolute position.

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Relative position is position relative to the likely bettor. The closer you are to the right of the likely better (acting directly before the bettor), the better your relative position.

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Example:
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You can have both absolute and relative position at the same time. If a couple of players limp, you limp on the button, and the small blind raises, you'll likely enjoy both kinds of position on the flop.

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As a good player, you'll bet, call, and raise more often when you have position...Unfortunately, your observant opponents know that just as well as you do.

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Being out of position can force you to tip the strength of your hand earlier than you'd otherwise like to.

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Before you enter a pot, think about who the likely flop bettor will be.

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A Preflop Strategy
(pg.122)

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In deep stack no limit, preflop hands have value based mostly on how well they extract money after the flop from your opponents. They don't have value based on how likely they are to win a showdown.

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If you like to think in terms of A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] "beating" J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] because ace-high beats jack-high, or even of Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] "beating" 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] because a pair of queens beats a pair of fours, stop now. These notions are worthless in deep stack no limit. Indeed, they are worse than worthless, because they lead you to the wrong (sometimes to absurd) conclusions about how to play.

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I'm not going to include the whole preflop strategy here but I think posting the percentages for our UR, UL, and UF(Usually Raise, Usually Limp, Usually Fold) hands is important.

UR - (raise/limp) Idealy 80/20 but between 85/15 and 70/30 is fine.

UL - (limp/raise) Idealy 80/20 but between 85/15 and 70/30 is fine.

UF - (fold/limp/raise) 80/10/10

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Some macho types will tell you never to limp first in from LP. But that advice belongs to limit games or tournaments. In deep stack cash games, limping, even on the button, will frequently be a fine play.

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Adjusting to
Stack Sizes - An Example
(pg.131)

This section cannot be quoted.

Blocking Bets
(pg.135)

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A blocking bet is a small bet made by an out of position player designed to keep the street "cheap."

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If your opponent is a consummate bluffer, she might bluff with far more hands than she'd call with. Against such an opponent, making blocking bets isn't nearly as attractive, as you preempt your opponent from bluffing off her money.

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Against such a "calling station" player, you might want to bet the river, but no longer as a blocking bet; you'd no be betting for value!

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Like the aikido master, you must use your opponents' strengths against them.

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Defending Against the Blocking Bet

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Raise. The blocking bet hates a raise.

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[b]uNL TAP Intro
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4

uNL Discussion of NLTAP
(courtesy of RobTheDuck)

Intro : Introductions
Week 1: pp. 1 – 32 (32 pages)
Week 2: pp. 33 – 60 (27 pages)
Week 3: pp. 61 – 90 (29 pages)
Week 4: pp. 98 – 121 (22 pages)
Week 5: pp. 91 – 97, 122 – 142 (26 pages)
Week 6: pp. 143 – 167 (24 pages)
Week 7: pp. 168 – 182, 228 – 230 (17 pages)
Week 8: pp. 183 – 198, 231 – 237 (21 pages)
Week 9: pp. 199 – 213, 214 – 226, 238 – 240 (29 pages)

Superman26gt · #2 06-19-2007, 08:04 AM

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As a good player, you'll bet, call, and raise more often when you have position...Unfortunately, your observant opponents know that just as well as you do.

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Being out of position can force you to tip the strength of your hand earlier than you'd otherwise like to.

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This is an example for the above quotes.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($15.85)
MP ($5.25)
CO ($17.70)
Button ($14.55)
Hero ($20.95)
BB ($5.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.60) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks, Button bets $0.1, Hero calls $0.10, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds.

Turn: ($0.80) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $0.80

RobTheDuck · #3 06-20-2007, 12:06 PM

I know this week’s readings consisted of 4 completely unrelated sections. In constructing our syllabus, I did my best to keep the number of pages we would read each week to be about the same. However, this does confirm what the authors told us in the introduction – that the book could be read in any order.

I’ll divvy my comments for the week into these four sections. Here’s the first:

Absolute and Relative Position
This section is pure gold. I could end my analysis here, but for the sake of discussion, I’ll continue, with 3 examples from my play (I'm using quotes to hopefully make it easier to read - they are not actually quoted from another post):

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HAND #1
Here is a hand where I had horrible relative position, but continued to play because I had absolute position. You’ll see how well it worked out for me

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($21.95)
UTG ($9.85)
UTG+1 ($5.20)
MP1 ($3.15)
MP2 ($14.35)
CO ($2.45)
Hero ($14.15)
SB ($1.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 raises to $0.3, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold, BB calls $0.20, MP1 calls $0.20.

Flop: ($1.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $0.4, Hero calls $0.40, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($2.05) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets $0.7, Hero calls $0.70.

River: ($3.45) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $2.5, MP2 calls $2.50.

Final Pot: $8.45

MP2 has 7c 8c (flush, ten high).
Hero has Kd Jc (one pair, twos).
Outcome: MP2 wins $8.45. 

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HAND #2
Here is a hand where I had relative position, but not absolute position:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($3.90)
Button ($3.55)
SB ($9.75)
BB ($7.30)
UTG ($10.15)
MP1 ($13.75)
Hero ($10)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.3, CO calls $0.30, 2 folds, BB calls $0.20.

Flop: ($0.95) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.6, CO raises to $3.6 (All-In), BB folds, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($8.15) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($8.15) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $8.15

Hero has 9d 9s (three of a kind, nines).
CO has 6s 8s (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $8.15. 

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HAND #3
Here is a hand where the relative position seemed to change on every street:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($28.20)
Button ($25.25)
SB ($19.90)
BB ($11.90)
Hero ($28.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $0.3, MP calls $0.30, 2 folds, BB calls $0.20.

Flop: ($0.95) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.55, MP raises to $2.4, BB calls $2.40, Hero calls $1.85.

Turn: ($8.15) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets $0.6, Hero raises to $3, MP calls $3, BB folds.

River: ($14.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $6, MP calls $6.

Final Pot: $26.75

Hero has Qd Qc (two pair, queens and eights).
MP has Jd Ac (two pair, jacks and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $26.75. 

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This isn’t discussed in the book: what do you guys think about what I will call “floating relative position”? When a different player takes control of the hand on the pre-flop, flop, and turn betting? How does this change the dynamic of the hand?

Shibby · #4 06-20-2007, 02:21 PM

I don't think the hand #2 example is a good example of Relative Position. (I do realize it's hard to find specific instances of this stuff in a database)

I'm at work, so I don't have HH's at my disposal to look through them, but I think a good example of this is as follows:

50NL

Hero is SB.

Everyone limps, you complete and the BB raises to $1.50.

All of the limpers call, you call with 96h completing the action and you will be able to see what the PFR and the rest of the field do before you will have to act. (assuming you check to him)

So, worst Absolute position, but best Relative position to the PFR.

HighSteaks · #5 06-24-2007, 10:58 PM

This makes me wonder about the likelyhood of being paid off for hitting a set in a raised multiway pot when the raiser is the third person in after two limpers and you are on the button with a PP. I wonder if you can look at this pot as being purely multiway, when the two limpers often call the raise simply because they limped - what chance is there that either of them will get involved in paying you off - it goes check,check c-bet and then to you with your set, often he will be just cbetting, you raise and the original limpers fold behind and at best you are involved with one player but you were prepared to call the PFR as though it was multiway - might be false value in calling a lot of those raises.

bozzer · #6 06-25-2007, 06:33 AM

does anyone follow this preflop stategy? how does it work for you?

misterwigs · #7 06-25-2007, 11:01 PM

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does anyone follow this preflop stategy? how does it work for you?

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This is the basis of my FR preflop strategy and it seems to work fairly well. I've only recently moved up to 10NL though, so I don't really know any better.