Squeeze gone wrong

notTHATjonmayer · #1 11-20-2006, 01:10 AM

Preflop look ok? After that, is it ok to just give up? Should i be firing on this flop?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $246.90
CO: $112.50
Button: $81.30
SB: $144.10
notTHATjonmayer: $131.20

Pre-flop: (5 players) notTHATjonmayer is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, Button raises to $3.5, SB calls, notTHATjonmayer raises to $14, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($42, 3 players)
SB checks, notTHATjonmayer checks, Button checks.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($42, 3 players)
SB checks, notTHATjonmayer checks, Button checks.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($42, 3 players)
SB checks, notTHATjonmayer checks, Button bets $25, SB folds, notTHATjonmayer folds.
Uncalled bets: $25 returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: $42

hemstock · #2 11-20-2006, 01:14 AM

It's ok if you are playing against thinking opponents and not calling stations. Postflop I would give up as well.

hongster · #3 11-20-2006, 01:20 AM

We need reads on button and SB before we can assess how good preflop is. Vs a button that steals a lot and raises light, the pf is fine. vs a button that hasn't done crap all in the last hour, this sucks, as we should assume we are against something good and try to hit a set cheaply. The pf overcall from the SB is a little surprising - there are not many hands that play this way. Most likely he also has a pair that he wants to set with.

Postflop play, I think the line you took is ok. Any meaningful c-bet has to be huge in relation to effective stack sizes ( button ESS = 67 behind with 42 in the pot). Obv any A/combo draw is going to call you. I feel you can fold out the SB, but the button is probably going to the felt, as this flop is very likely to have hit him in some way.

notTHATjonmayer · #4 11-20-2006, 01:36 AM

Do we really need a read that button has been stealing a lot? I mean, he certainly hadn't been sitting still for an hour, but I figured against a relatively active button stealer- which describes most 6max players i think- this was a fairly standard squeeze.

Keep in mind, my definition of standard is based mostly on about 2K hands that I've played, and gotten a feel for, but doesn't the SB caller give us even more reason to re-pop?

Haiku · #5 11-20-2006, 01:46 AM

PF is fine. I'd probably just give up on that flop as well.

hongster · #6 11-20-2006, 01:57 AM

Reads always help [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

And given your read that the button is indeed standard, preflop is fine. [censored] board though.

carnivalhobo · #7 11-20-2006, 01:58 AM

no reason to squeeze with 77, just take a flop

notTHATjonmayer · #8 11-20-2006, 02:02 AM

Haha. Finally looked like we agreed that PF was fine, and then someone chimes in that there's no reason to squeeze w/ 77.

Well, of course there's a reason. There's a decent amount of money in the pot that I think I'll take down a fair % of the time, and I have a hand that will either be an easy C-bet and then fold or have a set and be willing to play for stacks most of the time.

Plus if people are paying attention it adds some range to my 3-betting hands which can be a good thing.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right play. I'm just learning, so if there's things I'm not thinking about let me know. But there "not being a reason" doesn't seem like a great argument against it.

carnivalhobo · #9 11-20-2006, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Haha. Finally looked like we agreed that PF was fine, and then someone chimes in that there's no reason to squeeze w/ 77.

Well, of course there's a reason. There's a decent amount of money in the pot that I think I'll take down a fair % of the time, and I have a hand that will either be an easy C-bet and then fold or have a set and be willing to play for stacks most of the time.

Plus if people are paying attention it adds some range to my 3-betting hands which can be a good thing.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right play. I'm just learning, so if there's things I'm not thinking about let me know. But there "not being a reason" doesn't seem like a great argument against it.

[/ QUOTE ]

your hand plays fine, some would say well, in a raised pot, if you flop a set you will win a large pot, also you can selectively choose to call someone down if you think they are FOS. Typically you squeeze with garbage types hands preflop so you dont get tempted to play them when you dont get folds. Id prefer it if you had held 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or something similar. Where you either flop huge to it, or you cant even talk yourself into trying to continue after the flop.

Haiku · #10 11-20-2006, 02:33 AM

On the contrary, I think a typical button raiser's range is huge so there's very little guarantee you'll win much if you do flop a set, and with a hand like 77 it's extremely likely you have the best hand but it's fairly difficult to play postflop OOP. Since his range is so large you're much more likely to take it down preflop and/or with a c-bet on most flops.

If this was a raise from EP and the Button had just called then I agree just calling with a mid-PP is far and away better than squeezing: the initial raiser's range is much narrower, so he's more likely to pay you off with a set and less likely to fold outright to the squeeze.

There's a segment in some video (one of Stox's I think) where he makes some really excellent points about playing mid PP's out of the blinds like this that I tend to agree with.