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  #131  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:04 AM
bobman0330 bobman0330 is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting requirement, sucks for the guy that the incident took place in "broad daylight"

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I think this is an incorrect interpretation of the statute. The phrase "during the nighttime" should be taken to modify theft only, not that entire clause. Compare:

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(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime
; or


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The sentence structures are parallel; why would they use the same modifier twice if the latter one modifies the whole sentence? It's possible that Texas courts interpret it that way, but it's a pretty strained interpretation. Of course, if I were a Texas judge I might resort to some pretty strained interpretation to lock up people like the guy in this case...
  #132  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:04 AM
miajag miajag is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

"at night" is part of the common-law definition of burglary, so it's not surprising it's codified in the statute.
  #133  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:16 AM
ElSapo ElSapo is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

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And FWIW, in response to this:

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This man didn't wake up that morning with the intent to kill two black men.

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Though it's not explicit in the recording, I think most of us can assume this guy would use any chance to shoot a black dude. If they were white this almost surely would not have happened in the way that it did.

[/ QUOTE ]

What?

It's all speculation of course, but I listened to the call and didn't get this at all. Not at all.

I'm going to drop out of this thread - the people discussing seriously and the people trolling have become indistinguishable to me. Not a good sign for my own sanity.
  #134  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:22 AM
27offsuit 27offsuit is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

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All,

'He actually says "I'm going to kill them."'

From the call:

"You're gonna get yourself shot if you go outside of the house with a gun."

"You wanna bet? I'm gonna kill them"

That operator did a phenomenal job imo.

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ElDiablo, I completely do not agree with this. While listening to the call, this exact interaction made me say 'WTF, why are you instigating this guy?'. The operator was doing great before and after, but he seemed to actually get him a little fired up here.


In my opinion, he'll definitely walk. Texas and that law that passed Sept. 1st being the only two reasons.

I'm not sure where I stand on it. The rape comparison, while kind of apples to oranges, actually made me think 'where do you draw a line?' It's not so much a bag of loot, it's your damn neighborhood.

My take so far is:
He got progressively pissed watching it.
He knew that law had recently changed.
He knew his way around a shotgun.
That all being said, he opened that door and no more than two seconds later he goes "Boom! Your dead!" *BOOM* *click-click* *BOOM* *click-click* *BOOM*, one guy must have literally looked up to a shotgun blast and the other turned to run and caught another one.

I still think he'll walk, though.
  #135  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:27 AM
waarior waarior is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]

Property rights matter. This guy did the right thing by calling the police. It's certainly much more controversial, but I also think he did the right thing by trying to stop the thieves when it became clear that the police would not arrive in time to stop the crime. The only real question here is whether he should have pulled the trigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Howard,

I agree with many of your points but don't quite understand where you are coming from with this. Are you saying that anybody/everybody should try to stop illegal actions they see taking place? Especially in this situation the 911 dispatcher explicitly tells him to remain inside and says that it is alright if they get away before the police arrive.

As others have pointed out if people feel they have such an obligation it seems to be a very quick and slippery slope into shooting of pranksters/neighbors checking up on neighbor's houses on vacations etc...


Around the 5:00 Minute mark of the Youtube video the dispatcher asks him if he knows the neighbors. He responds,

"No I don't really know these neighbors at all."

I'm not a lawyer but wondering if that statement also impacts the applicability of the statutes?



[ QUOTE ]
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection
of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third
person's land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he
uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent,
or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.


[/ QUOTE ]
  #136  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:32 AM
RoundTower RoundTower is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

they weren't robbers because they didn't assault anyone. They weren't burglars because they were stealing during the day. All of the sources seem to use one term or the other. What is the correct term for them/the crime? Thieves? Larcenists?
  #137  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:37 AM
nutsflopper nutsflopper is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Newspapers (some at least, I've only read a couple) are reporting it as "Move and your dead" .... I dunno.

I'm curious to hear how more people feel. I just can't get behind the absolute assertion that the guy was wrong. And I really don't think this is a strong case for gun control, or at least, not as strong as some people seem to think.

The guy realy sounds to me like he felt he didn't have a choice - he felt duty-bound to try and stop the thieves. He may well be an idiot, and he may really have been wrong. But I listen to the tape and it's just not so simple for me.

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Do you really think the neighbor's VCR was worth the lives of two men? This guy did. He thought about it, the 911 operator urged him repeatedly to cool down, and then he decided that yes, he should kill (or run a very high risk of killing) two people to save his neighbor's stuff. That's evil and depraved. Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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You're saying what's evil and depraved is the neighbor killing the ROBBERS, just so you realize.
  #138  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:40 AM
MuresanForMVP MuresanForMVP is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]
they weren't robbers because they didn't assault anyone. They weren't burglars because they were stealing during the day. All of the sources seem to use one term or the other. What is the correct term for them/the crime? Thieves? Larcenists?

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Burglary is a crime related to theft or another crime. It typically involves breaking into a house, outbuilding (such as a shed, stable, or garage), business, school, place of worship, boat, aircraft, rail car, or motor vehicle with an intent to commit a theft or felony.

[/ QUOTE ]

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More precisely, at common law, burglary was the breaking into and entering of the dwelling house of another, at night, with the intent (at the time of the entering) to commit a felony therein[1]. This definition has been greatly expanded in most jurisdictions, so that, for example, the building need not be a residence, actual breaking may not be necessary, the entering no longer need be in the night time, and the intent to commit any felony can suffice.

[/ QUOTE ]
  #139  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:45 AM
KJS KJS is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

I am gonna think of this guy and this thread when someone gets murdered using a Slim Jim to retrieve their own keys or climbing in their window because they are locked out.

KJS
  #140  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:54 AM
KJS KJS is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]
Howard Treesong -- I didn't want to quote your long post but your first post is by far the best in this thread. It seems the most rational and well thought of any that I read. And I would like to think our jury system would act similarly.

Some of the posts here actually scare me. "He shouldn't have gone out there", "possessions aren't worth life", "He's guilty as hell, open and shut case", etc. But what you forget is that HUMAN NATURE plays a huge role here.

I actually had a similar situation to this when I was a young girl. My mother and I saw two robbers (we are white and so were the robbers although I think that is somewhat irrelevant) leaving our neighbor's house in broad daylight. My mom called the police and then we both went on the front porch and started yelling at them, etc. Big difference is that we didn't have a weapon and were totally unprepared had they done anything to us. NOW I can see that was VERY STUPID but it was just a gut reaction and not rational or thought out at all.

To think that someone could go to prison for this is scary as hell to me. This man didn't wake up that morning with the intent to kill two black men. He was given a set of circumstances and he acted. Was it the wrong -- probably. Would you, I or anyone else do what he did --- probably not. That's just my point ---- each one of us can THINK we know what we would do but you don't know until it happens to you and each person would do it a little differently. Should he be robbed of his freedom for his actions that day ---- I don't think so.

Great topic though --- I enjoyed reading about it and the discussion.

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Good post. I think it is worth mentioning, however, that the state does not think death is a justifiable punishment for stealing from someone's property. This guy did. So he and the state have to know decide how to mediate the fact that he acted as jury and executioner instead of allowing the state apparatus deal with these men, as the operator was advocating.

I am not a lawyer but it is my belief that the laws that govern behavior such as citizens shooting other citizens exist to create a deterrent from citizens punishing people in lieu of the state doing so. Otherwise, this kind of force would be acceptable in many circumstances. And the state cannot tolerate that. So even if he did act out of human nature, it has to be a natural reaction that the state feels is OK.

I think it will be interesting to follow.

KJS
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