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  #21  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:39 PM
neurotiq neurotiq is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

hehe, this is somewhat off-topic, but on the subject of chops. I had two hands last night when I played live in chop situations.

The first, I'm OTB with A3. It's folded to me, so I open-raise. Both blinds glare at me; evidently they had agreed to chop before I raised. SB 3bets. BB caps. I fold and congratulate them on getting $6 of dead money from me. They agree to check it down and SB opens 99 and BB opens QQ. Flop comes down with a 9 and the set of 9s holds up for SB. BB looks at me like he wants to kill me; he would've gotten his $3 back instead of losing $12. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The second, I'm in SB and it's looking like it'll be folded to us, so I ask BB what he wants to do. He says "instead of chopping, let's cap preflop and then check it down!" I have AJ and know he's LAGgro enough to play a worse hand this way, so I agree. So, we cap and then open. He has A3 and my unimproved AJ is good. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2007, 04:12 PM
tyler_cracker tyler_cracker is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

here's something i said at the beginning:

[ QUOTE ]
the "tags" make huge mistakes hu

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for proving me right, several of you.

raising pf sucks because he's never folding and there's no reason to bloat the pot with 52o.

checking the flop sucks because we have bottom pair and an OESD ergo we bet for value. we can talk about checking behind the turn ui if it comes to it because we are in position.

even with only bottom pair, the flop is still a bet because villain has two overcards to our pair and we want him to either fold those or make an incorrect call in a pot we have intentionally kept small.

with only an oesd it's closer, but i still bet because we still have fold equity, this board is not particularly likely to hit his hand, and we are IP and can see a free river.


re: chopping. i didn't want to have a long chopping discussion, but i should have known better. one of the keys is that chopping etiquette says that you either ALWAYS chop or NEVER chop. you don't get to pick and choose based on your hand. waiting to look at your cards when you're in the blind is unnecessary unless you're a scumbag or a ward of the state.


now, can we please talk about the river decision? villain's line simulates what a donkey would do with a big hand (trips or a straight or a set, maybe AA or KK). this guy didn't seem like a donkey; he seemed more like someone who was trying to play well (i will be aggressive and win mobnies!) but just wasn't very good.

trips are a monster in a hu pot, especially considering the metagame considerations of my refusal to chop. still, i have the worst possible kicker and i have shown nothing but strength. can i really raise the river? fold or call if 3bet?
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2007, 05:16 PM
fretelöo fretelöo is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

[ QUOTE ]
even with only bottom pair, the flop is still a bet because villain has two overcards to our pair and we want him to either fold those or make an incorrect call in a pot we have intentionally kept small.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's the point. He's not. Esp. if "we can talk about checking behind the turn ui if it comes to it because we are in position." That's pretty much the worst that can happen and the thing that's most likely to happen: You let him draw to his two cards for 1SB (giving him the correct price, btw) and setting yourself up to potentially pay off 1BB in a-then 3BB pot with no hopes of being best often enough.

If, however, you're routinely betting flop and turn with BP HU, you're spewing. Plain and simple.
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  #24  
Old 11-28-2007, 05:44 PM
tyler_cracker tyler_cracker is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

he's getting 3:1 on his flop call. what hands should he peel with there?

also, i disagree that betting bottom pair is spew. i have the best hand here way, way often enough to bet for value, even on a blank turn.
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  #25  
Old 11-28-2007, 05:55 PM
bozlax bozlax is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

[ QUOTE ]
now, can we please talk about the river decision? villain's line simulates what a donkey would do with a big hand (trips or a straight or a set, maybe AA or KK). this guy didn't seem like a donkey; he seemed more like someone who was trying to play well (i will be aggressive and win mobnies!) but just wasn't very good.

trips are a monster in a hu pot, especially considering the metagame considerations of my refusal to chop. still, i have the worst possible kicker and i have shown nothing but strength. can i really raise the river? fold or call if 3bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going back to my original response, Tyler. This belongs in the NC thread, and you're making yourself sound even more nOObish with this, "Please don't talk about the previous streets, just answer my damned question about the river you [censored]," noise. "This guy seemed to be trying to be good," further, sounds like you're just trying to stir the pot to make the river decision more interesting...his line doesn't make any sense pretty much regardless of what he has unless he's holding an overpair (not 77) or the case deuce, and puts you on something like A4 that'll be scared to bet the river. But you're a TAG, you value-bet rivers all the time, so he isn't going to be worried about it checking through.

(Here's another way of looking at it: if you had 52o in the BB, it folded to the SB and he had just completed without offering you a chop, would this hand still be interesting?)

As to the river, who cares? It's one bet either way in a 7-bet pot. If you can't fold to a trey, just call his bet and show him what a genius you are for never chopping.

Edited to add: now I breathlessly await Babar's beratement of my beratement of Tyler.
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  #26  
Old 11-28-2007, 05:58 PM
fretelöo fretelöo is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

lol. Sorry, all the time I was assuming a 4SB pot on the flop (like the "normal" HU pot is). Still, if he has 12 outs total over two streets and can assume that he often gets a free card on the turn, that call isn't bad. A raise is often better though, as will happen frequently if you routinely bet any hand down to bp.

And, no you won't have the best hand "way, way often enough", esp. if villain limps basically his whole range pf. He's ~40% to hit the flop with a pair. If the board is somewhat drawy, he'll have a piece even much more often (up to 70% btw.). So you basically never win it with a single bet. Besides that, he'll pick up a pair (let alone a good draw or make his draw) 12% of the time on the turn. Thus, more than half the time he'll have a pair better than yours. Include the times he tries to be tricky-trappy with a monster, raises you on flop or turn with a draw (both of which make your hand pretty much unplayable) or is just letting you bet his MPnK for him, it's a very definitive NO!

There's simply none (to very little) value in betting bpnk. Against an aggro guy you'll either be winning small pots and lose big ones (or be raised off the best hand), and generally win much more by inducing bluffs.
Against passives, you'll (too) often bet their hands for them.
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  #27  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:25 PM
tyler_cracker tyler_cracker is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

let me take this part first:

[ QUOTE ]

Here's another way of looking at it: if you had 52o in the BB, it folded to the SB and he had just completed without offering you a chop, would this hand still be interesting?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, of course. have you fallen into the trap of thinking this hand is about whether i chop or not?

i think it's funny that less than a week ago you posted a PSA, the first main point of which was:

[ QUOTE ]
1. Give reads. If you have no reads on the specific player in question, at least give your general read of the table. If you've only just sat down at the table, give your general read for the site/limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought that the issue of chopping was a factor that affected the play of this hand, so i included it. you obviously agree, because you have suggested a couple times that chopping is *so* key to the hand that the hand itself is only appropriate for a NC discussion.

again, i think this hand is as useful to discuss as any other blind defense hand. the chopping issue is not central, but it is not irrelevant. it is part of my read of the situation.


[ QUOTE ]
"Please don't talk about the previous streets, just answer my damned question about the river you [censored],"


[/ QUOTE ]

i didn't mean to imply that no one should talk about the first three streets (fret and i are debating them even as we speak). however, i am pretty confident that the first three streets are straightforward and not very interesting. this is why i was attempting to refocus the discussion on the river decision, which i think is interesting.


[ QUOTE ]

As to the river, who cares? It's one bet either way in a 7-bet pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you believe this, then why talk about limit poker at all? should i value bet this river with TPTK against an opponent who has just called down? it doesn't matter! it's only 1 bet either way!



ok, with all of that out of the way, we finally come to the strat portions of your reply:

[ QUOTE ]
his line doesn't make any sense pretty much regardless of what he has unless he's holding an overpair (not 77) or the case deuce, and puts you on something like A4 that'll be scared to bet the river. But you're a TAG, you value-bet rivers all the time, so he isn't going to be worried about it checking through.

[/ QUOTE ]

so your range for him is something like AA-88, 66, and 2x?

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't fold to a trey, just call his bet

[/ QUOTE ]

we're a pretty heavy favorite against the range i've come up with based on your description. are you sure raise/call isn't better?
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  #28  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:12 PM
bozlax bozlax is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
his line doesn't make any sense pretty much regardless of what he has unless he's holding an overpair (not 77) or the case deuce, and puts you on something like A4 that'll be scared to bet the river. But you're a TAG, you value-bet rivers all the time, so he isn't going to be worried about it checking through.

[/ QUOTE ]

so your range for him is something like AA-88, 66, and 2x?

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't fold to a trey, just call his bet

[/ QUOTE ]

we're a pretty heavy favorite against the range i've come up with based on your description. are you sure raise/call isn't better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's see if I can get off my soapbox. That range is about what I'm thinking. The problem I have with a bet/call is that the guy you describe isn't going to trey with the pocket pairs, only with 2x and you lose to all 2x hands. There's a possibility that he's pulling this with specifically 7x, but that'll fold to a raise. There's also a possiblity that it's specifically 65 (again, afraid that your A4 checks behind), so again you should be folding to a trey.

I understand the point you're trying to make with your read, that he's thinking that you're an a-hole, and he's going to punish you with his 4x, but if you really believe that he's trying to play well, does he trey with anything that you beat here? For that matter, does he call with anything that you beat if you raise? Sounds to me like the kind of guy that would just call with A5, sure that you had a boat, a better set or wouldn't call a trey without one of those.

[i]Edit: we're only a pretty heavy favorite against that range if he treys all of it. I don't think he does. It's trips, not a set; if you were holding a set then, yeah, raise all day long.
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:28 PM
neurotiq neurotiq is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

[ QUOTE ]
can i really raise the river? fold or call if 3bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably just call this river. Is this opponent going to call our raise with a worse hand?
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2007, 10:20 PM
tiltaholic tiltaholic is offline
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Default Re: do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lameasaurus rex. there's now a chance i might hate you.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

as a peace offering, i offer an fyp:

[ QUOTE ]
chop. the hand plays differently after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

hehe [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

incidentally, i chop for to save time and get to the next big multiway pot which is where the real $$$ is and because it pleases the weak tight "tags" that are so easy to otherwise run over in non-chop situations. i don't care about beating the rake because wtfisrake?

i forget the actual hand but i think you needed to raise the turn because he'll check the river.
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