TT in 100r Tilt 6X situation

[shaundeeb]

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this is a 6max tourney with good stacks to work with no one in this tourneys open range is ahead of 10s here at this point with these stacks.

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Which is why I'm confused what Bond's even asking here, he said himself he shouldn't be 3-betting anything he's folding (which I don't necessarily agree with), and if that's the case then TT is a snap-call (which in general I am here, definitely if I did 3-bet it).

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Shaun said 10s are ahead of his opening range, not necessarily his 4bet range. I still think it's a call though.

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yah but he prob is 4betting enough, since I can't see him calling with 88/99 PF being OOP and all and raise/folding 99 utg in 6max is really weak.

[rppkoz]

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I did misread the hand, sorry, I thought it was a limp, I dunno why. That's why we use the converter?

I still don't like the idea of putting in 22% of our stack with any possibility of folding later in the hand. You're willing to call a shove too, might as well shove yourself.

I like a call PF actually. BB might call, and that's not horrible. Go from there. We're talking about an UTG raise from a good player, his range is likely ahead of us blah blah.

I would call here.

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Dave, do you understand how much we change villain's range by reraising and calling a shove instead of just shoving?

Seriously, just because you're going to call a shove doesn't mean you should ship 42 bb's in and polarize his calling range into things that crush you and AK.

You can repop and let him shove with things like 88 and 99 because he thinks he has fold equity and all the cool kids are 4 betting nowadays.

[djk123]

if i'm 3 betting here, it's with the intention of snap calling a shove. against this villain i definitely think 3bet/call is optimal. vs others flatting might be better.

[Dave D]

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I did misread the hand, sorry, I thought it was a limp, I dunno why. That's why we use the converter?

I still don't like the idea of putting in 22% of our stack with any possibility of folding later in the hand. You're willing to call a shove too, might as well shove yourself.

I like a call PF actually. BB might call, and that's not horrible. Go from there. We're talking about an UTG raise from a good player, his range is likely ahead of us blah blah.

I would call here.

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Dave, do you understand how much we change villain's range by reraising and calling a shove instead of just shoving?

Seriously, just because you're going to call a shove doesn't mean you should ship 42 bb's in and polarize his calling range into things that crush you and AK.

You can repop and let him shove with things like 88 and 99 because he thinks he has fold equity and all the cool kids are 4 betting nowadays.

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Yeah, but a shove looks like a steal. Villian will think why the overbet push (even though it's not really) and call with those pairs you mention, figuring he's flipping at worst. I see this a lot at the levels I play at (granted not more than $50 buy in) and have experimented more with overbetting lately. Especially pushing PF when I could have just 3x'd with AA. I get looked up lighter.

I mean I dunno, I think the difference comes out to be marginal, but I hate it when villian calls our raise, and then the flop comes AK3 or AJ2 and we get to fold.

Also, as I said, I like the call line better. So we're talking about non optimal/best lines anyway.

[amak316]

Ive played with ship alot and though he is quite aggro i think flat calling is still optimal. As Shaun said your definately ahead of his opening range, but imo in mtts this isnt reason enough at all times to 3 bet and play an 80bb pot with 1010 in this situation. Your ahead of his opening range, behind his 4 betting range, and i prefer to play a pot in position with what is likely the best hand then to 3 bet and get 40bbs in preflop with a hand thats slightly behind his 4betting range.

I think 3betting and folding to ship however is quite bad as hes a good creative opponent, and though he'll often show you a hand better than 10s hes capable of making this move with a worse hand, and AK a high enough percentage of the time that youll have to call imho.

[ZJ123]

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I did misread the hand, sorry, I thought it was a limp, I dunno why. That's why we use the converter?

I still don't like the idea of putting in 22% of our stack with any possibility of folding later in the hand. You're willing to call a shove too, might as well shove yourself.

I like a call PF actually. BB might call, and that's not horrible. Go from there. We're talking about an UTG raise from a good player, his range is likely ahead of us blah blah.

I would call here.

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Dave, do you understand how much we change villain's range by reraising and calling a shove instead of just shoving?

Seriously, just because you're going to call a shove doesn't mean you should ship 42 bb's in and polarize his calling range into things that crush you and AK.

You can repop and let him shove with things like 88 and 99 because he thinks he has fold equity and all the cool kids are 4 betting nowadays.

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Yeah, but a shove looks like a steal. Villian will think why the overbet push (even though it's not really) and call with those pairs you mention, figuring he's flipping at worst. I see this a lot at the levels I play at (granted not more than $50 buy in) and have experimented more with overbetting lately. Especially pushing PF when I could have just 3x'd with AA. I get looked up lighter.

I mean I dunno, I think the difference comes out to be marginal, but I hate it when villian calls our raise, and then the flop comes AK3 or AJ2 and we get to fold.

Also, as I said, I like the call line better. So we're talking about non optimal/best lines anyway.

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A steal? Who shoves 42bbs over a utg 3x on a steal. Hands like 88 and 99 are not calling a shove, but they might 4 bet allin! Thats why you 3/bet call.

I think a flat call is better here, for the reasons amak said, (in position ahead of open range/behind 4 bet range etc)

[luckychewy]

i agree w/ pretty much everything amak has said.

i don't doubt 3-betting pf is +cEV, and i have no proof, but feel that flatting yields a higher cEV vs. this and most thinking villains under most circumstances.

though there are definitely some situations where either of you have a really laggy image or there is some recent history that would make his opening and 4-betting range wider where i could see 3-bet/calling being more +cEV than flatting.