Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation Offer

[RikaKazak]

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Quoting Mason:

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Two Plus Two and its forum members have been responsible....

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The forum members have done all the work....Two Plus Two as a company hasn't done [censored].

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soooooo true

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[Adrian20XX]

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All Two Plus Two did, was to provide the infrastructure and also the atmosphere for a group of posters of Two Plus Two to notice, investigate and alert.



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This is flat out wrong. What Two Plus Two has done over the past twenty years is to create an entity that must be taken seriously by everyone in the poker business. Also, we do have a very strong reputation for integrity. It is this framework which allows our posters to have the kind of influence they had in this situation. No other major entity in the industry, as far as I know, was able to step forward in the manner that we did and apply the kind of pressure that we did. Yes, you may argue that this was done by our posters and not by us. But it was done under our name which meant it needed to be taken very seriously and could not be sloughed off.


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Wow, I got a reply to my message from Mason.

I can not find what is flat out wrong with my point. I think it was clear that when I said "All Two Plus Two did", was in the context of what we might call now the AP scandal. Obviosly Two Plus Two did a huge ammount of other things, many of them which reside in my library, and many of them that I don't even know about.

I've called it the atmosphere, you called it the framework and explained how did you created the framework during this twenty years.

If by "under our name" you mean "on our site", and I totally agree it was done on Two Plus Two's site.

Not me neither the "normal" posters know what Two Plus Two did behind the scenes, but as you've choosen (as is Two Plus Two's right) to keep it behind the scenes, and altough I do respect you and Two Plus Two soooo much, for me the credit of the investigation here has to go to the posters.

And for sure this I can assure you, I personally didn't received any notice or alert from the legal entity Two Plus Two regarding the problems that arised at Absolute Poker, I've only saw some posts from Two Plus Two's representative at a very later moment when some posters had put the undefined entity "poker community" upside down by their work and posts. I check my mail (which I happily provided when I signed) every single day, every couple of minutes, not once did received any alert or notice from Two Plus Two.

That's why I think that to say "Two Plus Two has been responsible for noticing, investigating, and ultimately alerting the world" jointly with some forum members does not reflect the facts (sorry for previously using the word horrible).

And I think altough might be ideal, also is probably much more less likely in the real world, as obviously a legal entity probably needs a definitive prove, while the registered users can openly exchange ideas until they arrive to what they consider a prove.

Don't get me wrong, I love 2+2.

And if I don't did it before, let me thank you so much for providing the registered users with this amazing framework, where a nobody like me can get the chance to debate ideas either about poker hands, poker sites or any other subject, with much more experienced people like you.

So, I have an idea that I personally think can be of a lot of help to the registered users of Two Plus Two. Alert and Notice them when this kind of things occur. I've read the BBV section by chance, is was not within my preferred categories, and so many users can still not be aware of this.

I'd love if Two Plus Two could do an on-site investigation.

I'd love if Nat and some of the key people that participated in the investigation could do another on-site investigation representing only them selves, they probably could publish the results more raw without having to take care so much about legal stuff and wording.

And again, I love 2+2.

Regards ...

[Phil153]

Mason,

First of all thanks for everything. The lack of response almost seals the deal on Absolute, as far as I'm concerned. There's no reason at all why a company with nothing to hide would refuse this request, especially when after they offered to fly down and pay for an unqualified 25yo entrepreneur to look around.

In the interests of disclosure, how much was the sum you were seeking from Absolute to do this investigation? I don't imagine lawyers, auditors and computer forensics experts come cheap.

[N 82 50 24]

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I'd love if Two Plus Two could do an on-site investigation.

I'd love if Nat and some of the key people that participated in the investigation could do another on-site investigation representing only them selves, they probably could publish the results more raw without having to take care so much about legal stuff and wording.

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As I posted yesterday, I did do an on-site investigation. I am in the process of writing up my findings. For the most part I am not super cautious about legalities, but I did sign an NDA and I am not going to wildly drag names through the mud unless there's significant evidence (in my personal opinion) that they were involved. Obviously much of what is going to be said is *still* of the speculative nature because there were some terms attached to my visit that essentially quarantined some of the information from my view.

[N 82 50 24]

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especially when after they offered to fly down and pay for an unqualified 25yo entrepreneur to look around.

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I might not be ISO certified or whatever you're looking for, but...

1. I know the relevant details regarding this situation better than almost anyone.

2. I have a very good understanding of poker and what is and isn't likely to be cheating.

3. I have a technical background that allows me to investigate these types of things quickly (for instance, in my actual visit, I wrote a php hand parser to identify superuser-type action)

4. I used to work for Deloitte & Touche as an auditor and I have substantial knowledge of financial audit techniques (granted that is not the same as a gaming audit, but I'm pretty sure a number of principles carry over). I also know a lot about controls testing as I spent a lot of time on Sarbanes-Oxley engagements that did not deal with a financial audit in any way.

Therefore, called me an "unqualified 25yo entrepreneur" might be accurate in the sense that I am not a certified gaming auditor while also being an entrepreneur in everyday life, but I think it vastly understates my ability to perform the task at hand.

[MarvinMartian]

As a player on absolute I found myself very interested in the situation. I lurked alot and have only just registered to maybe, some day contribute something. However, I think while Mason's representing himself and his site creates a tiny rift between individuals and even other contributers because they felt like a tight community, Mason has to make sure legal requirements are met.

I wasn't sure of who the key people were but since "Nat" seems to be the discoverer I'd say Nat was the force behind why everything came together. Or "Nat et al", seeing as the only thing which actually matters is the content produced, the intelligence used to present it, and the sinew to maintain course and direction. I remember everyone flaming and calling it a conspiracy, for months. The individuals put their reputations on the line in pursuit of discovery and what they believed was right. 2+2 forums now want to put their reputation on the line to do an investigation. I liked the suggestion that Nat did an independent enquiry while Masons' lawyers did their 2+2 official investigation. Seems like something you could support or discuss Mason.

It's my opinion this forum is really incredible due to the people who use it. The person operating it seems great and has good intentions. Its clearly a combination of factors where a good community, good site, and dedication from astute, intelligent individuals uncovered cheating. This leaves me to think the only problem that can be found is in people not liking how they could percieve certain wording by Mason. You can't be perfect all of the time, that's variance right?

I forgot to mention. Why would anyone trust the gaming certificate from that nakawhatever company. Didn't they already have one from them while they had cheating?
Shouldn't AP's slogan be "Continueing to be the most cunning with biggest promotions"? I got a phone call from them telling me I'm a special customer and I have great promotions. They are nice bonuses, but I don't think I'd take the promotions over trust anymore.

[Phil153]

Nat,

I wasn't looking to give you a hard time, I respect you a lot and I'll certainly be reading your articles when they're published.

But to think your investigation can compare to a hardened team of lawyers, computer experts and ex-government auditors is just silly.

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I'm not sure where I should post this. I guess here, since this is the active AP thread at the moment. Mods, feel free to move it if you know a better place.

I copied some numbers from pokersitescout.com and made a graph:



This is the peak number of cash game players on AP each day, the last 61 days. It doesn't look like they've lost any business at all.

[Chrisman886]

Mason --

Maybe I don't know enough about this industry (or your attorneys), but I just have a couple questions. First, why would you and your company do this? From a business perspective it seems the costs you would incur from this investigation would far outweigh the benefits from any potential outcome. Also, if I may inquire, and I'm doubting it, how much will this investigation cost 2+2?

[Daack]

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That isn't quite accurate, they paid out more than was cheated. For example, in the 98 person POTRIPPER tournament they paid out $1K to every person in the event plus they bumped everyone up a spot. That is well more than the $30K that was cheated by POTRIPPER.


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This is of course a true and valid point.

My personal view on AP's "generosity" here is quite a bit harsher.

I really don't think they had a choice. 2p2 backed them into a corner and the $1K refund became required for survival. In legal speak, it's a mild form of compensatory relief.

In any kind of regulated environment there would also have been a HUGE punitive damage award. The ~$200K AP spent doing damage control disbursing POTRIPPER tournament cash would be a tiny drop in the bucket. Same thing with any money they return to their cash game players.

AP is getting off dirt cheap because there is no regulating authority forcing them to pay punitive damages.