What shall we do with the calling station ? (NL25/PL25)

TheBad · #1 10-28-2007, 07:29 AM

So i moved up to NL25 on friday and had a riciculous start. 4 Buy-ins down. Tried to keep a positive mindset. Reload and keep playing. After 2000 hands (1000 PL, like it a little bit more), i came to the conclusion that i was card dead, didn´t always play my A game and lost 2 complete Buy-ins cbetting AK/AQ/KQ and similar holdings.

I actually saw more calling station then at NL10, and, even worse, my standard approach was very expensive. At NL10, i used to cbet 1/3-1/2 pot, and everybody called. Then i started to bet at least 2/3 Pot and my cbets starter to show a lot of profit. NL10 players want it cheap. At NL25, this was expensive. They called and called and called... gross.

I varied the size of my cbets and came to the conclusion that betting less was fine. It seems like my betsize didn´t change much.
1) Is this true ? Is 1/3 to 1/2 potsize enough ? Will the loose players decision really be influenced by our betsize or only by his relationship to his two cards ?

I start to think that it´s better not to play AK/AQ/KQ/AJs oop. Yes, even AKs showed no profit. Even the dumbest player assume that you must have 2 high cards after waiting for so long. In order to make them fold, i had to second barrel oop against 2 loose players just to see their pair of eights on showdown. I don´t see how AK can be +EV in early position with at least 2 loose players to my left.
2) Should i just fold them oop ?

Thoose loose players quickly start to play back if you are TAG. Usually they don´t, but they realize that the TAG is an easy prey when c/r on flop. As i never know what kind of miracle cards villain was willing to play, i am not interested to call his c/r and 2nd barrel with K high. I wait for a solid hand (2pair+) and let him taste his own medicine.
3) What do you do when a bad player starts floating you ?

4) Do you think PL calling stations are different to NL calling stations ?

AlexB182 · #2 10-28-2007, 07:49 AM

1)No. This is not enough. 2/3 to pot is way better and it will influence loose players decisions. If you really found someone to be loose, try 2nd barreling the turn. Helps very often against that kind of players.
You're right that AQos and KQos (maybe even AJs) are not necessary a must play OOP. Not playing AKs from any position is plain stupid and I guess you only say that because you lost some money with it in your 1st NL25 session.
So to 2): Depends. Never fold AKs or AK, never (though pretty much nothing in poker is never or always...) fold AQs when you're first to open the pot. It's ok to fold AQ and AJ (not always of course) in EP. KQ is even weaker, I know players that only play it in LP or even don't play it at all. More important: work on your CBing. You end up OOP with AKs with 3 loose villains on a J87 board? Don't fire again. Simple as that.
3) First, there really is not much floating, c/r light, 3 betting light stuff at NL25, seriously. If you still get the feeling someone is floating you regularly, you have to become even more aggressive like 3 betting him light even when you missed the flop but raised PF. Or go for a c/r on the flop when you hit your hand. But again, that doesn't happen too often.
4) No, they are equally bad, except that I have the feeling that there are some more calling stations at PL PF and on the flop. I guess that's because it can't become really expensive at that point of the hand. When betting gets big on turn (usually), it's pretty much the same.

Wow, I seem to have a lot of time today...

#3 10-28-2007, 07:53 AM

futuredoc85 · #4 10-28-2007, 07:56 AM

yo thats too much to read but the answer to your question is to stop bluffing so much and start valuebetting more

WantToLearn · #5 10-28-2007, 08:04 AM

Hi,

I´m moving up these days as well (I´m actually mixing NL25 and NL10) and even though everyone else says it´s the same, I made the very same experience like you.

I lost a lot at NL25 by c-betting by default into one or two opponents, which is VERY fine at NL10. I found more gamblers.

I check out all the big stacks at the table and as a matter of fact, there is more people playing only one table at a time at NL25. Or maybe that was only the weekend players but I don´t think so.

These one-tablers are quick to notice someone who may lay down a hand just because the stay stubborn.

TheBad · #6 10-28-2007, 08:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Wow, I seem to have a lot of time today...

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate every answer. (I hate to complain about my bad luck and bad players)

Here are two examples to discuss. In the first Hand, villain is 80/60 after 11 hands:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($15.95)
Hero ($24.75)
UTG+1 ($27.35)
MP1 ($39.20)
MP2 ($8.15)
MP3 ($31.25)
CO ($20.05)
Button ($29.85)
SB ($27.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $1.5, 6 folds, SB calls $1.40, BB calls $1.25.

Flop: ($4.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, SB calls $2.50, BB folds.

Turn: ($9.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($9.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $4.5, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $9.50

Villain is 36/15 after 40 hands:

PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($13.90)
CO ($24.95)
Button ($43.10)
Hero ($23.40)
BB ($12.80)
UTG ($24.50)
UTG+1 ($24.65)
MP1 ($21.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $0.5, 5 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.25.

Flop: ($3.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $2, UTG calls $2.

Turn: ($7.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: ($7.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $3, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $7.75

TheBad · #7 10-28-2007, 08:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
yo thats too much to read but the answer to your question is to stop bluffing so much and start valuebetting more

[/ QUOTE ]

How do we value bet AK when we miss it 2/3 of the time and even very bad players will notice if you only bet when there is an A or K on the board ?

futuredoc85 · #8 10-28-2007, 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yo thats too much to read but the answer to your question is to stop bluffing so much and start valuebetting more

[/ QUOTE ]

How do we value bet AK when we miss it 2/3 of the time and even very bad players will notice if you only bet when there is an A or K on the board ?

[/ QUOTE ]

this would be a problem if you always had AK, but since you sometimes have PPs, KQ, AQ, JT etc. then you can just bet a lot of streets when you have a hand and not bet a lot of streets when you dont? If they start to fold too much on boards with an A or a K on them then you can bluff on those and just bet other boards when you have something

#9 10-28-2007, 08:16 AM

WantToLearn · #10 10-28-2007, 08:40 AM

Maybe you could call this (hands above), given the player type you are up against.
This is how the math goes:
your.call / (pot.as.is + your.call)

when it says like 0.25 or so that means you need to be good 25% of the time to make the call ok.