AK basics for advanced players

[ryanj247]

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $60.70
BB: $17.30
UTG: $75.65
MP: $57.20
Hero (CO): $49.25
BTN: $52.50

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, 3 folds, MP calls $4.25

Flop: ($12.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $9</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $51.20 and is All-In</font>

also, consider a slightly different version of the same hand:

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $60.70
BB: $47.30
UTG: $75.65
MP: $57.20
Hero (CO): $49.25
BTN: $52.50

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, 2 folds, BB calls $5.50, MP calls $4.25

Flop: ($18.25) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $12</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $51.20 and is All-In</font>


i'm not a beginner. i'm just frustrated and embarrassed, really, that i don't have a better handle on these situations. i've played way too much poker to not have a solid plan here, but the fact is that i just don't.

i don't know how to find previous posts in SSNL that address this spot specifically. if you know of any good ones, please link.

i basically just have a million questions in this spot that i haven't settled on a comfortable answer for in my own mind. i don't have a structured way of analyzing these spots. i don't have a checklist to go down that can lead me to the correct decision.

basically every time i've ever been in this spot i've bet and called the crai. i have a limit background. i just hate to fold this hand. but now that i have a few hundred thousand hands of experience in NL, what i really hate is not REALLY knowing whether i should even be considering folding, and if so, HOW to identify the times when i should fold. ugh.

i'm capable of identifying the retards that i'm happy to get AI here every time. but that's really a small % of the villains i'm up against. i need to have a plan vs. all the other villains.

so vs. opponents that are not retards:

when it's checked to me here, i don't know if i should even bet. when i decide to bet, i don't know how much to bet. i don't know if i should like getting it in here or not? in this case i have 4 hands on the guy. but what about all the other villains in their different varieties of "decent"?

if i bet small and get c/r, should i now call? if i bet big and get c/r, should i now fold? should i be categorizing the villains as aggressive or passive, and always folding to passives and always calling aggressives? or do i need to be choosing my actions based on more specific categories of opponents?

should i just always check behind and call small bets on the turn &amp; river? should i check behind and call big bets and stack off? should i check behind and call a turn bet but fold to a big river bet? do i have to bet the flop in the 2nd example 3 handed? do i have to bet pretty much every flop when it's 3 handed and i'm last to act and i have TPTK with AK?

what about board texture? can someone please help me to figure out some kind of rational way to look at a board and say yes, this is a good board to get AI on? Js3cAc, is that a good board to stack off on, or not? WHY? i really don't know.

does the fact that i have the nut backdoor FD make enough of a difference to warrant a call when i would otherwise fold? and oh btw, what if i had AQ here? is having AK enough to warrant a call when i would fold AQ?

honestly, i wonder if i should just push preflop every time. at least then i would basically feel comfortable with my play, winning a ton of small pots and having decent equity on average when called.

if i'm always bet/calling here, is that a big leak? is this always a close decision? can you identify a scenario where with no history bet/folding TPTK is clearly correct vs. a particular opponent, and then describe what kind of history would be necessary to make bet/calling correct vs the same opponent?

hopefully you can understand that it's not these particular hands i'm asking about. i just need to be better prepared to play AK postflop in every situation vs every opponent. i need help developing a comprehensive thought process to guide me into the correct decision every time i'm in this spot.

[2hi4me2cu]

At those limits i think i would call, you may well be up against AQ or a flush draw. Then again it could be AJ, and hes put you on some kind of draw. I guess it depends on the player and what reads / range of hands you can put him on.

Personally i think other people could offer a better explanation - im new :&gt;

[WelcometotheSuck]

It seems you are already asking yourself all the right things when put in this situation...decisions like this are tough for just about everybody, and mostly villian-dependant. Obviously if you know this guy is CR AI with all kinds of draws you'd be calling here. The key is figuring out what hands your opponent is making this move with, and if you aren't able to do that, start by narrowing his range of likely holdings. If you believe the only thing you are beating at this point is a flush draw and he's just as likely to have A-J/3-3/ etc.., you should be folding here. This is where playing on autopilot multitabling becomes difficult, and with no reads even more so. Maybe if you've seen him do the same w A-10 or some junk, calling would be +EV obv. These are crappy spots and you really have to know your opponent. Also, folding here just to "play it safe" is informing observant opponents that they can raise you off top pair when the board is tricky, and you become very exploitable. Be aware of you image at the table as well, if you have called the CRAI earlier and shown down AK, well, the next time you bet out and get CRAI by an astute player they are giving you credit for a hand and telling you they have it beat. I'm probably rambling here, but I was having the same problems with same types of hands, and still am to some extent. As far as questioning even betting the flop, don't. If villian just calls your 3/4 flop bet and turn blanks, move in. that's it. If turn completes FD, 3 options: mov in, crai, or check/fold. Again, player dependent. Beware if FD comes in and player checks behind you, then makes a big bet on river, 9 times out of ten he's turning over two clubs or is at least beating TP/TK. Anyway just my thought, I'm sure some poo bah will roll through and tell me what a fishy douche i am

[WelcometotheSuck]

hey man dig through the master sticky also at ssnl, there's a goldmine of info there on situations similiar to these

[Rek]

You are in a tough spot here but IMO you have made a rod for your own back by making the pot so big. Without any reads on an opponent who has raised from MP of the size he did I am only calling. With nothing to the contrary I have to put him on a big pair or AK/AQ/AJ pre flop.

You have position on him which is good and a bet, after his check if fine. But if you had kept the pot smaller then a 1/2 or 2/3 pot bet is not too damaging to your stack. Once he has CRAI, I’m guessing at trips or 2 pair and can now put it down if need be without decimating my chip stack.

AK is a nice hand but don’t get married to it. With a large pre-flop bet before me I am often calling and re-assessing after flop. With limpers or min-raise I will re-raise. But don’t build such a large pot or it is difficult to get away from. With an A on the flop you have a good hand but it is still only a pair and I don’t want all my chips in on 1 pair. So I think my advice would be to raise when appropriate but keep the pot size reasonable so you can get away from it if you need to.

[pzhon]

Once you get check-raised all-in, you have a relatively simple problem, believe it or not. Determine your opponent's range for raise/calling and then check-raising you all-in, determine your equity against this range, and then see if you have the odds to call.

I think a lot of players would play this way with JJ, AQ, and AK, and maybe AJs. If you think this is your opponent's range, you can count the combinations of each hand: There is only one AJs hand possible, there are 3 JJ hands, 8 AQ hands, and 6 AK hands. You dominate 8 of these, tie 6, and are crushed by 4 of these. It looks like you are ahead of this range, so if that is your estimate, then you have an easy call regardless of the pot odds. Other estimated ranges may give you a different answer. If you think your opponent is unlikely to play this way with AQ or AJ, you might count 4 wins out of 11, which would let you call getting 7:4 odds, slightly worse than 2:1.

You should be very cautious about stacking off with one pair in a limped pot, or a pot with a single raise. You should not be as afraid to get your stack in with AK flopping TPTK in a reraised pot. You don't often have more than one pair on the flop, so if you are willing to fold the best one pair hand to a single raise, you will be very vulnerable to aggression. It may still be right by a lot to fold if you think your opponent would not take advantage of that vulnerability.

Professinal No Limit Hold'em has a lot to say about this, although I think it is missing some key ideas, which might show up in later volumes.

[ QUOTE ]
does the fact that i have the nut backdoor FD make enough of a difference to warrant a call when i would otherwise fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes it is a plus, and an extra 3-5% equity can be worth a lot when you are trying to figure out if you win 25% of the time. Here, it is not necessarily a plus. The reason is that you are blocking some possible flush draws like K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. That may decrease the proportion of your opponent's range you beat.

[PantsOnFire]

The real issue you have here is the size of the pot relative to the effective stack. You should read this book: "Professional No Limit Hold'em".

Just off the top of my head, I don't see any reasonable flush draw or flush draw+pair doing this here and only a true maniac would have 33 here. So we are left with AK, AQ, AJ and JJ. That's a pretty bold move for AQ unless he had a flush draw to go with it (which is impossible).

This sure looks like JJ given that you re-raised pf and bet the flop but still go no respect from villain. Of course reads are important here to sort this mess out but I'm not very happy with my tptk at this point. I might call the second one due to the pot odds but it would mostly be a crying call and one for (expensive) information.

[basementproject]

Just want to point out one thing i found very interesting about these hands- they are essentially the exact same in all respects. Exact same holecards and board, and same lines taken by all players (except the extra caller in 2nd hand). Same guy pushing into you in both hands.

In my mind, there's no way he's got you beat both times here. Entirely possible he didn't have you beat in either. You mentioning that you only have 4 hands on him makes it even more suspicious. Looks like somebody just sitting down wanting to prove a point/gamble/tilt you for future exploitation. The odds of him having your hand crushed on that board, twice, after only 4 hands are super-slim.

Applied generally, I guess what I'm asking is how closely are you paying attention to context at your tables? I'm guessing you were stumped the first time he took this line against you, so my question is why did you take the same line the 2nd time around? I guess the extra caller made things a bit more complicated, but I do think that if put in the same situation I would just check the flop, try and get some info. If you check, BB checks, and dude still pushes, you know you've got it, and you can call easily. What was BB playing like? Instead of taking the 1st hand into consideration and trying to grab some info, your line on the 2nd hand just put you in the exact same situation you didn't want to be in.

Keep in mind that when somebody pushes after a raise on the flop, it can mean one of two things: a) The nuts and hoping for a dumb caller/silly draw call, or b) Something marginal that he doesn't want to show down. If you don't put villain on a), which I don't in either of these hands, you can be pretty comfortable calling. Poor players will not play monsters this quickly, and even a lot of skilled 50NL players won't necessarily bet out with them (never mind push!).

Kind of curious as to what the results were, BTW. Fold both?

[ryanj247]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think your opponent is unlikely to play this way with AQ or AJ, you might count 4 wins out of 11, which would let you call getting 7:4 odds, slightly worse than 2:1.


[/ QUOTE ]

ok, i have a few questions:

1) could you walk me through how you got to this "4 wins out of 11" statement? if i think my opponent is unlikely to play this way with AQ or AJ, then he has either AK or JJ right? how do i win 4 out of 11 if that's true?

2) are you able to do these kinds of hand combination calculations quickly and accurately while playing multiple tables and timing down, etc? any tips/links on shortcuts for doing this? i feel like i'd have a hard time adding up all the combos even playing live with plenty of time.

3) when i went back and tried to assign a range, i came up with some additional hands.

the first range you mentioned is JJ,AJs+,AQ+. vs that range i'm basically a 60/40 favorite. but i feel that's not a likely range.

"Holdem Ranger" is like poker stove but can process weighted ranges. i ended up settling on this:

AA(25),JJ,33(50),AKs,AJs-AQs(25),JcTc(50),AKo,AJo-AQo(10)

the (50)/(25)/(10) indicate that the opponent would likely play those hands this way that % of the time. not sure if i'm doing the weighting correctly, but i'm trying to account for the hands that opponent would be less likely to show up with here. certainly in addition to JJ &amp; AJ+, almost every decent opponent will play AA this way sometimes, and 33 &amp; JcTc this way quite a bit. vs this range, i'm about a 60/40 dog.

if an opponent would never CRAI in here with AQ, then i'm a 70/30 dog.

so the problem i have is that by making fairly subtle changes in my assumption about my opponent's range, the conclusion of my analysis changes from a clear call, to a coinflip, to a clear fold. and subtle differences from one board texture to the next will have similar effects, i'm sure. i mean, it took me a bit of time for this specific situation to go through and formulate what i feel is the correct range, so how can i possibly expect to come to the correct decision each time when i have only 30 seconds to do this type of analysis?

i understand the idea of doing these range/equity calculations to build a kind of sixth sense that takes over when you encounter situations, so that you just kind of naturally make good decisions without relying on doing any calculations on the spot. but i have a hard time feeling like it's going to prepare me to handle AK TPTK spots; instead, i'm going to be panicking, trying to figure out if i'm a 60/40 favorite in the specific situation or a 60/40 dog (which is going to be determined by one specific/subtle assumption relating to the board texture and the particular opponent...)

so yeah, any info you can share about how you can practically use hand combination or range/equity analysis IN REAL TIME would be much appreciated.

also, suppose i can get to the point where i can actually identify something like "OK, if my opponent would never CRAI with AQ here, then it won't be profitable for me to call". well, any specific tips on what kind of logic to use to decide whether a specific opponent would or would not make a marginal play like that? again, should i just go ahead and go with "all aggressive opponents would, and all passive opponents wouldn't"? or do i really need to be more specific than that, and rely on specific stats, etc? and if i just don't have enough information to know whether i'm likely to be a 60/40 dog or a 70/30 dog to a particular opponents range, which should i default to, and why?

[ryanj247]

[ QUOTE ]
Just want to point out one thing i found very interesting about these hands

[/ QUOTE ]

heh, i basically just manufactured these hands. they didn't actually happen.

in the actual hand that did happen that got me started thinking about all this, the action was somewhat different although quite similar, i called, and the villain had JJ.