What the smartest Vegas poker boss will do.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Excellent post, btw. Obviously you put some thought into it.

I'm going to comment one by one, marking the start of my comments with **

1. Move from 10-handed tables to 9-handed. More hands per hour, and more action per hand. Short handed games play faster and looser. 9-handed isn't much shorter or faster, but since when do suits not want small benefits?

** I agree for the most part. I think 9 handed does give overall better action, although it's not a big difference. In rooms that are rarely full, this is a good idea because it gives players the sensation of being in a full game more often, and makes the house a bit more money. In rooms that are often very busy or full this is not necessary (but probably wouldn't hurt).

2. Switch from deep-stack to mid-stack or small-stack NL. IOW, switch to LA-style NL. 5/10 with $500 buy-ins. Much more action, much more fun. I don't think anyone in Vegas spreads games like this.

** agree. Vegas used to have several rooms like this, but now it's mostly deep stack, with max buy-ins of 100 big blinds or more (often no max). More action is an effect of shorter stacks, but not the main reason I like the idea. Deep stack games tend to allow a few skilled players clean out the tourists much faster. This will inevitably cause the games to dry up sooner because most of the loose money will be gone. Some rooms in more isolated areas are already seeing this happen. Ironically, it's mostly the local nits, not the tourists, who push rooms to allow bigger buy-ins.

3. Jackpot, NL seperate pool. Some Vegas joints offer this. All but the B should.

** I don't disagree with the theory, but I've never heard anyone actually complain outside of a few isolated posts on this forum. I don't know of any vegas joints that do this, do tell - which places separate limit and no limit jackpots? In reality I think this concept would be far too advanced for the simpletons who make many of the important decisions about poker in las vegas.

4. Free food. Or, $3/hr comp rate. Be GENEROUS to your customers. Make them feel like kings while they're losing to you. Every penny you save them, you get anyway. They're almost all playing to the extent of their disposable income, so a dollar you save them on food is one more dollar they have to play with.

** I agree they should comp more than the standard $1/hour. The "standard" comp for a pit player is 20% of the house's ev on your action. From spreadsheets I've done, the house's average ev on a poker player is about 7.50/hour. This would make a comp rate of $1.50 an hour more reasonable, and $2.00 an hour pretty good. In reality, the house often comps bigger games more, ignoring the fact that these players make up the smallest portion of their business. In some cases the house may even be charging these players lower time charges. The house makes profit on food, thus food comps are not really a dollar-for-dollar expense. This may surprise some, but I don't think $3/hour is a reasonable comp rate, I think it's too high.

Okay, ALL these suggestions, ex. the food, are hugely anti-nit. But no smart poker boss worries about the nits in his ear (and if you've even been a poker boss, you know they really are in your ear with their stupid NIT suggestions and whines). Ignore the nits. Nits follow action. So, get the action. And action WANTS action. They WANT big blinds relative to the buy-ins. They WANT jackpots. They WANT more hands per hour. They WANT to be able to play looser, and play with people who are playing looser. And the difference in looseness between a 5/10 NL with $500 buy-ins, and a 2/5 NL with $1000 buy-ins is HUGE. There's a reason Oceanside has the toughest games in SoCal, and the Commerce the softest. Be like the Commerce.

** I agree, especially about the nits. I'm about as anti-nit as you can get.

** I also agree about the buy-in vs action ideas you outline here. I have not spent that much time at commerce, but it was quite clear that the games were on average far better. Just watch the tight, actionless, many walkers games of 5-10 no limit at the rio during wsop if you want to see no-action of course there are lots of exceptions, I'm talking overall effect.

Most importantly, stop trying to be like the B. I can't understand why there are so many pale versions of the B. The B is different, but it seems like all the Vegas poker bosses look at the city's most successful room and think: let's do what they do. [censored] what they do. Give them an endrun. Throw them a curve ball.

** basically agree. The bellagio does many things right, and is overall well run. But many people, including me, don't like bellagio. The main reason quoted is the poor treatment of low limit players. Another common reason is floors who don't explain what they are doing when they make decisions. Preferential treatment of locals who know which wheels to grease is also mentioned. And finally, it's just plain crowded, often with long waits.

** the bellagio sees most of the high limit business in vegas, which is why they do many things the way they do. This is fine. The rest of vegas will see mostly low limit games, and should therefore do many things different from bellagio.

** I must add that bellagio runs excellent tournaments, and all las vegas dealers, floors, and bosses should go and learn a thing or two from the bellagio in this area. This does not mean everyone should do tournaments exactly the same as bellagio. For instance, a $60 daily tournament that usually sees 50 players, 48 of them tourists, should not use antes. Each room should find what works best in their own niche.

Cliff's notes: someone in Vegas should run an LA-style room.

** overall I agree wholeheartedly. The time I've spent in los angeles casinos backed up the notion california casinos are run better than all others. The years I was in san diego backed this idea further. Maybe someone does it better, but I haven't seen it yet.

Al

[bav]

I disagree that 100BB is "deep stack" poker. That is simply about the minimum that lets you play poker all the way to the river. Typical NL1/2 game the preflop raise is to $12, maybe 3 see the flop, $36 in the pot, everybody has $188 left. You like the flop and put an almost-pot-size bet of $30 in, get one caller, $96 in the pot, $158 left. Turn looks safe, you wager 2/3 of the pot and put in $60, get called, $98 left, $216 in the pot. $98 goes in on the river.

Anything less than $200 and you might as well just push the turn. 100BB is "normal" poker. 50BB is short-stack poker. 200BB is "deep stack". (By my own definitions, anyway--dunno what any official wisdom claims.)

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree that 100BB is "deep stack" poker. That is simply about the minimum that lets you play poker all the way to the river. Typical NL1/2 game the preflop raise is to $12, maybe 3 see the flop, $36 in the pot, everybody has $188 left. You like the flop and put an almost-pot-size bet of $30 in, get one caller, $96 in the pot, $158 left. Turn looks safe, you wager 2/3 of the pot and put in $60, get called, $98 left, $216 in the pot. $98 goes in on the river.

Anything less than $200 and you might as well just push the turn. 100BB is "normal" poker. 50BB is short-stack poker. 200BB is "deep stack". (By my own definitions, anyway--dunno what any official wisdom claims.)

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Sounds about right. Back before they started making max buy-ins the traditional min was 40x the BB. This would be rounded to a reasonable number. When we were spreading 1-2 NL we made the min $50 rather than $80, I know a of a couple of times that 1-2 NL was spread with a $100 min.

[Ghazban]

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2. Switch from deep-stack to mid-stack or small-stack NL. IOW, switch to LA-style NL. 5/10 with $500 buy-ins. Much more action, much more fun. I don't think anyone in Vegas spreads games like this.


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You might have trouble getting a short-stacked 5/10 game going. Most 5/10 regulars in Vegas are set on the deep stacks at Wynn/B


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The B has a 1K cap on the 5/10 game. A lot of the local players hate this about it and prefer the Wynn/Venetian/Caesars uncapped action.

[daveT]

Why all the talk about what the local players want. The locals are attempting to make moneys off the tourists, correct. The casinos should focus on what the tourists want.

Poker is still a scary game for a ton of people because it is expensive to play a hand. A 3/6 limit hand will cost at least 20 dollars, compared to a BJ game with a $5 minimum. Now you force a $100 minimum on a game that person has no idea how to play, and he can loose it all in one hand.

It is also be obvious to the tourist that there are people waiting to take him or her out. I once took a friend (a WHALE) to a casino, and he complained that he couldn't enjoy himself because he felt like everyone was drooling over him. If I took him to a no-limit game with a capped buy-in, he may have felt different.

The California Casinos do well because most of the players feel like no one can possibly win the game.

[Ghazban]

For games below the lowest stakes, local players are vital to keeping the games going.

[bav]

Yeah, don't underestimate too much the importance of the locals for keeping the room healthy. Last night at Venetian there were 5 of us (at least) that were locals in the stupid little NL1/2 game. I gave up and vamoosed for greener pastures.

[daveT]

^^ That's my point. It is important to guarantee fish in your game to keep it going. Although Locals are no doubt a vital part of the poker economy, especially in the slow season, the real donators for the game are the tourist. They ultimately keep the games alive.

For example, Commerce has a hotel on top of it. I don't know if it is always sold out, but be rest assured that the bigger games (20/40 and up) are supplied by these people.

In Vegas, the average person spends 3k over a weekend, and the supply side for higher limit games is smaller. The busiest tables, quantity wise, are the small $2 bj tables, $1 slots, etc, not the high limit tables. You want to attract these small rollers to the table to play poker, and doing promos specifically for the local crowd (bbj's, etc.) isn't going to bring the tourists in. You have to change the dynamics of the games you are spreading. The largest wind-fall for No Limit in California was the concept of capped games. Keeping them small is what works best for the casinos because the losing player is not going to loose so much so fast, and the feeling is that they can win it back is much stronger, which is essentially why the casinos always get action. A tourist looses $200 in the first orbit, he is much less likely to dig back into his pocket for more money than he would if he lost $50. The casino wins by supplying more fish for the locals, keeping the locals happy, and taking more rake by keeping the games longer.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Why all the talk about what the local players want. The locals are attempting to make moneys off the tourists, correct. The casinos should focus on what the tourists want.

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Agree completely as long as you do enough for the regulars to get games started (e.g., game starting comps).


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The California Casinos do well because most of the players feel like no one can possibly win the game.

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True for small limits but in the middle sized NL games many people do well. Part of the reason we have so many games is that the structures make it easier for the casual player to occasionally book a win. Without an occasional win they can't lie to themselves about how "they are pretty close to breaking even".

They also do well because competition is restricted.

~ Rick

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Move from 10-handed tables to 9-handed. More hands per hour, and more action per hand. Short handed games play faster and looser. 9-handed isn't much shorter or faster, but since when do suits not want small benefits?

** I agree for the most part. I think 9 handed does give overall better action, although it's not a big difference. In rooms that are rarely full, this is a good idea because it gives players the sensation of being in a full game more often, and makes the house a bit more money. In rooms that are often very busy or full this is not necessary (but probably wouldn't hurt).

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In small rooms (especially ones that are already hurting for business this may make sense theoretically but not practically. I just started working in a room has 9 handed tables. but as soon as a 10th player shows up, the floor makes it 10 handed. Why? because right now noone wants to risk losing a customer. everyone is afraid that if you don't get them seated they will go down the street to play.