Are Poker Contests going to be popular in the US ? Recent Court ruling

[apefish]

There are some big wows in the wording indeed. There are also some sections where my enthusiasm is tempered a bit but I think I should point out that the section Skallagrim quotes starts with...

As a matter of law the entry fees for Defendants' fantasy sports leagues are not "bets" or "wagers" because...

I think it's important to add those first five words for emphasis.

[1p0kerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, according to this judge, as long as you meet the no bet or wager criteria, you could have blackjack contests, craps contests, slot contests....

[/ QUOTE ]

According to condition #3, as long as you are not playing these games against the house, I think they fit.

[Jim Kuhn]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, I just like this guy, downloading and depositing..

[/ QUOTE ]

David (TruePoker CEO) has always been a very likable guy. TruePoker was my favorite site for several months. My only complaint with TruePoker was when they sent me the TruePoker condoms. I ordered extra large and they sent mediums (darned things were still too big - I think they were horse condoms).

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Skallagrim]

Not only does TruePokerCEO's SnG contest meet this judges criteria, but so would any MTT with a "guaranteed prize pool." The guarantee would have to be absolute, however, so the prize could not decrease if there are not enough players, nor increase if there are too many. Thats easy enough for a "contest sponser" to comply with (nothing stops cancelling the contest and returning the money if not enough players show up for example).

A small change and tournament poker is legal, pretty much everywhere (there are some few states with silly laws covering contests of any kind). Assuming of course, other judges rule the same way.

Skallagrim

[DerekJCEX]

donkaments suck! i want ring contests!

[ua1176]

[ QUOTE ]
btw (i meant to include this in my last post) a very similar comparison can be made to games of Magic: The Gathering (and other customizable card games) which have entry fees, include card games, and involve significant cash prizes.

[/ QUOTE ]

and have a very relevant combination of luck + skill.

[Alobar]

I like what you have done here

[RIIT]

I'd like to chime in hear in regards to the application of "conditional/unconditional" entry fees.

The entry fees for a spelling bee, a chess tournament, a beauty pageant are unconditional because the event begins at a scheduled time regardless of the number of entrants. The event operator does well by doing what is needed to get a sufficient number of entrants to achieve success. The final measuring stick has to do with whether or not the operator "could" lose money (due to a significantly sized guaranteed prize). If he can lose money then the entry fees are "unconditional". If he cannot lose money then the fees are "conditional".

Any SNG that cannot begin until 10 players are present implies that the entry fees are "conditional" (i.e. upon a full table of 10 players). The wording used to describe the "contest" simply does not matter; the underlying mechanics are the bottom line here.

For TruePoker to claim "unconditional" entry fees they would need to post a tournament announcement with the following features:

a) entry fees determined in advance
b) rake determined in advance
c) no set minimum number of players
d) guaranteed minimum prize amount
e) absolute start time regardless
f) set maximum number of players (optional)

Such conditions make it possible for me to be the lone entrant and win the prize by default; this is not likely but possible nevertheless.

If TruePoker wants to attempt to attract many players by posting a $1k prize for a $10 event at noon on Sunday then they can do so but if ony 3 people show up to play then they are still on the hook to begin at noon and deliver the game to those 3 and pay the $1k prize pool out in full.

bottom line: the conditional/unconditional issue hinges on whether or not the operator can lose money.

edit: this entire line of thought also applies to whether or not the prize is "guaranteed"

RIIT

[Skallagrim]

If you read the whole opinion, RIIT, you will see that the fantasy sports leagues also required a minimum number of participants before the games went forward and the prizes were guaranteed.

In other words, I dont think this judge was using the term "unconditional" in the same sense you are using it. Legal definitions frequently are not the same as common definitions.

What was meant here, IMHO, was that the entry fee guaranteed participation in the contest on an equal footing as all the other participants. The fee to play in the sports leagues was not conditioned on any other fee or status.

I see nothing illegal about a spelling bee that will commence on 1/1/08 as soon as at least 10 people show up to participate. I also nothing illegal about the sponsor of that bee canceling the contest and returning the funds if not enough people show up.

In other words, the contest is conditional, but the entry fee is not, it guarantees the right to participate in the contest if it is held. If you paid a fee and were told that only 10% chosen randomly got to play or that you paid the fee but also had to get 3 letters of reference, that would be conditional, IMHO.

As to prize amounts, the right to cancel the contest protects the sponsors. The real danger is a windfall for the sponsor by MORE people applying. More honest sponsors would therefore also have a maximum number of players.

Again, this is just one judge's opinion, but since it was clear in the facts that if there were not "a full compliment of teams" in the fantasy leagues, the contest would not take place, I have to conclude conditional meant something other than a guarantee the contest would take place no matter what - what if the spelling bee judges forgot to show up with the questions/words - would the sponsor be forced to go forward anyway? What if the company sponsoring the chess tournament lost all its chess sets in an accident?

Also, with SnG contests, even if I am wrong and there is one left over table with fewer than 10, thats hardly a big financial risk for the site operator.

Skallagrim

[1p0kerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
The entry fees for a spelling bee, a chess tournament, a beauty pageant are unconditional because the event begins at a scheduled time regardless of the number of entrants.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm not mistaken, the National Spelling Bee takes x number of contestants from each state, and it doesn't start until it has y number of contestants.

Your language here just doesn't make much sense.

One table poker contests most definitely have a starting time: they usually start one minute after ten contestants have signed up.

And as far as I know, the recent judgement doesn't say any of this.