Freedom

[Poofler]

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Figures. Well, in that case, I wonder if AC wouldn't have a big advantage in being able to piggyback on those thousands of pages, sifting through all the state-serving stuff for usable knowledge of course, and then go from there. If it takes our state thousands and thousands of pages to define property, it probably won't be any simpler in AC-land. It will have to be deliberated upon extensively and also decided on a case by case basis. Not surprising then is it xorbie, that no one can answer your question satisfactorily in a message board post?

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I mean legal cases interpreting matters of property. I didn't mean thousands of pages of codified property law. The actual laws are relatively brief. But so is the constitution, and there is no shortage of constitutional law cases, either. An AC system won't get rid of ambiguity, which causes these cases in the first place. It'll just allow for competing arbitrators who supposedly would have differing codes and interpretations to settle disputes. I doubt the feasibility of competing codes for non-contractual disputes, and think AC would very much resemble a ubiquitous common law property in those situations. So yeah, IMO, it would mostly be a tweaking of what we've got. Except for IP, according to most of the ACists, which won't be property.

[xorbie]

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You could become an intermediary, facilitating deals between landowners. You could figure out a great business idea then give a landowner a cut for allowing you to run it from his property. You could sing blues songs about your wretched situation and hold out your hat.


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These things require education, food and so forth. Unfortunatly we are not all born wise 21 year olds.

[pokerbobo]

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You aquired it through voluntary transactions.

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I am born with nothing, into total poverty, and all the land around me has already been divided up and is now declared "owned" by people who -- by sheer accident of birth -- just happened to be born onto this planet before I did.

I am now forced, by this circumstance, to labor for them and for their enrichment -- because, if I refuse to do this, I am penniless and landless and will starve to death.

Please explain to me how free I am.


q/q

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You are free and no one can force you to labor for them. If you choose not to labor for them, I would suggest laboring for yourself so you can accumulate wealth and perhaps buy some land from its owner. maybe then you can "force" paupers to labor for your enrichment.

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Did you just not read his post? Labor for yourself doing what? You have nothing.

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Get good or even great at something (everyone needs a skill)....All the rich landowners you refer to in your post will pay big money for people who are great cooks, landscapers, physical trainers, etc. the key is to not have a rich guy as your employer, but have many rich guys as your customers.

And yes of course I read your post....have you no confidence in yourself to think that you cannot gain skill without money? No one says you are going to be rich overnight, but effort will put you on that path.

[Dane S]

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Quote:

You could become an intermediary, facilitating deals between landowners. You could figure out a great business idea then give a landowner a cut for allowing you to run it from his property. You could sing blues songs about your wretched situation and hold out your hat.




These things require education, food and so forth. Unfortunatly we are not all born wise 21 year olds.

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True enough. Then I guess this example just shows how AC is no utopia. At least the money you do make slaving away won't be taken from you at gunpoint... is that any consolation?

[xorbie]

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Quote:

You could become an intermediary, facilitating deals between landowners. You could figure out a great business idea then give a landowner a cut for allowing you to run it from his property. You could sing blues songs about your wretched situation and hold out your hat.




These things require education, food and so forth. Unfortunatly we are not all born wise 21 year olds.

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True enough. Then I guess this example just shows how AC is no utopia. At least the money you do make slaving away won't be taken from you at gunpoint... is that any consolation?

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Actually you may not even have enough money to pay for anyone to protect you, so no [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Dane S]

Well if there are gangs of criminals roving around, I could try to join one of those.

Perhaps the landowners would get a little uncomfortable with criminal gangs roving around and voluntarily take measures to alleviate the conditions that cause them? Maybe some would (don't laugh) feel sorry for me?

[xorbie]

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Well if there are gangs of criminals roving around, I could try to join one of those.

Perhaps the landowners would get a little uncomfortable with criminal gangs roving around and voluntarily take measures to alleviate the conditions that cause them? Maybe some would (don't laugh) feel sorry for me?

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Back to the topic at hand... is this demonstrative of freedom in any sense?

[Dane S]

Well, you are free to deal with your dreadful situation as you see fit. I guess that's as much as you're guaranteed.

[Barcalounger]

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Also, your body and mind count as property, so you can't really not have property.

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Is all property equal? Is freedom to do what you wish with your body and mind more important than freedom to do what you wish with your landscaping?

[tomdemaine]

Freedom to me means freedom of association and everything else comes out in the wash. Once I can associate with who I want when I want about what I want (assuming of course that others are free not to associate with me if they wish) everything else will flow from that.

Of course complete freedom of association is an ideal that is difficult if not impossible to reach. I didn't want to associate with the mugger who robbed me a few weeks ago but he didn't give me much of a choice. The closer we get to true free association the better off we all will be.