I shouldn't even have to ask this probably but...

[wpr101]

These two hands are incredibly standard right?

Villian is pipo4 who is 35/16. After this hand I realized how much he sucks...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($368.40)
CO ($549)
Button ($421.65)
SB ($341.70)
BB ($393.30)
wpr101 ($409.15)

Preflop: wpr101 is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">wpr101 raises to $14</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($30) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">wpr101 bets $24</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $60</font>, <font color="#CC3333">wpr101 raises to $200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $379.3</font>, wpr101 calls $179.30.



Villian here is ty mutts who I have at 31/14 over 65 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($400)
MP ($475)
CO ($119)
Button ($322)
SB ($529.20)
BB ($534.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls $12, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($42) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $24</font>, BB calls $24, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $81</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $515.2</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $305 (All-In).

[LiLApprentice]

I think these 2 hands are hard to go wrong with. You can just call the raise on hand 1 if you like since you have position, or play it the way you did, either seems fine. hand 2, another hand you can just call the bet or pop it, looks like he has 66, but thats the worst case and your still live. Well played

[TheWorstPlayer]

I think these are both very badly played despite being 'standard'.

[My_Name_Is_Hov]

[ QUOTE ]
I think these are both very badly played despite being 'standard'.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol cool. how about filling us in with what your line would be.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Call the c/r in hand 1, overcall the flop in hand 2. And once you raise hand 2 and he pushes, all you have is a bare flush draw, potentially missing two diamonds. Fold. Which is why you shouldn't be raising in the first place.

Edit: Here's a hand I played today which illustrates why I think these hands are not well played. I raise A4hh in the CO, get called only in the BB (unknown). I bet a JhTx8h flop and call a small c/r. Turn brings the 4h and he bets around half-to-two-thirds pot. I push for 1.5x pot. He snap calls T8.

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: Here's a hand I played today which illustrates why I think these hands are not well played. I raise A4hh in the CO, get called only in the BB (unknown). I bet a JhTx8h flop and call a small c/r. Turn brings the 4h and he bets around half-to-two-thirds pot. I push for 1.5x pot. He snap calls T8.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand doesn't really prove your point because if you missed the turn which happens 80% of the time you would lose a decent size pot. And in this hand the board is extremly draw heavy to begin with. I can just as easily come up with an example where playing fast would have been better. Same board but villian now has 6h7h. Villian check raises flop and you call. Turn and river are blanks and it goes check check. Wouldn't you have much rather gotten in when he was drawing to 4 outs and committed. I'm not saying you played the hand wrong. It just doesn't make sense to give one abitrarly results oriented example and then say this is why.

Btw, doesn't standard imply that it is generally the most straight forward and best way to play hand against most opponents? Also, I think your word choice is horrible. There is no way that both of these hands are played " very badly".

[TheWorstPlayer]

I think you're missing my point. Let me try to be clearer. And I know that this post will be disagreed with by most people. That's why I said your lines were 'standard' - because most people agree you should play hands like that. But I disagree.

In any case, what if we took these assumptions:

1. Your hand never (or very rarely) has the best showdown value if all of the money goes in on the flop.
2. Your equity decreases significantly if you do not improve on the turn.
3. If you do improve to the winning hand on the turn, your opponents will still not fold their losing hand.

If these assumptions are all true, then your lines are not good. My hand was meant to be a data point indicating that these three assumptions might very well be true.

Edit: Also, your first line "This hand doesn't really prove your point because if you missed the turn which happens 80% of the time you would lose a decent size pot." could not possibly be more backwards. Unless you're suggesting that I would hit the turn more often by getting the money in on the flop? I'm not making winning the hand any more likely by getting the money in on the flop. I still miss the turn 80% of the time, obviously. But if I don't push the flop, then I can fold the turn and save myself some dough when I miss!

[Jay Riall]

It's much better to take lines like this with midpair or maybe tpnk + the flush draw imo. You are pretty much negating the value of your top pair and just turning it into a probable 5 extra outs when you get called. I'd take the same line as TWP is advocating. We're not really worried about free cards too much since we are usually way ahead/slightly behind.

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]


Edit: Also, your first line "This hand doesn't really prove your point because if you missed the turn which happens 80% of the time you would lose a decent size pot." could not possibly be more backwards. Unless you're suggesting that I would hit the turn more often by getting the money in on the flop? I'm not making winning the hand any more likely by getting the money in on the flop. I still miss the turn 80% of the time, obviously. But if I don't push the flop, then I can fold the turn and save myself some dough when I miss!

[/ QUOTE ]

So you disagree with the following statement? In this exact hand you lose a sizable pot on the turn 80% of the time when you call the check raise knowing that villian always pots the turn and that you are folding to that bet.

You don't even read what I'm writing before spouting off your talking points. How in any way was I suggesting you hit the turn more often when you push the flop? You give an incredibly biased example where something happens 20% of the time in your hand and expect me to have an ephipany that the standard play is wrong?

It is clear that we save money if we do not get allin and we miss; that is obvious. I was just giving a counter point to your ridiculous example.

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]
It's much better to take lines like this with midpair or maybe tpnk + the flush draw imo. You are pretty much negating the value of your top pair and just turning it into a probable 5 extra outs when you get called. I'd take the same line as TWP is advocating. We're not really worried about free cards too much since we are usually way ahead/slightly behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly realize just calling is a good option.

I have a problem whensomeone says that playing tp + nut flush draw + fold equity allin (see 2nd hand) is very bad.