Razz-caution or coward?

[Praxising]

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Now, I wonder what would happen if we presumed my opponent had one brick (9,T,J,Q,K) in the hole with his two good cards?

[/ QUOTE ]You have 2:1 in showdownequity, but your real equity isn't very near that since he's going to fold very quickly when your board is better than his.

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So, you don't play .50/1 at Stars, I take it? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] No, he isn't going to fold unless he gets something like KK on 4th and 5th. And the chance that he much looks at my board and not just his is kinda slim. If he "makes his hand" he is betting. Or calling.

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It does seem a little too optimistic to assume that your opponents are going to be playing any two wheel cards with a brick in the hole.

[/ QUOTE ] It's standard in this game at this limit.

[Raxxmataxx]

If it's actually true that you can expect a random opponent to be playing any hands up to K75 or something I'm pretty sure you could value-raise your J on 4th.

Edit: Well, that's quite a bit of hyperbole, as it turns out.

But if we look at the same equities, Assuming he'll play K9A and all better hands, as I did above we get 62-42-54-74-66. Ie, you're significantly ahead on all streets except fourth, and betting the river is supereasy.

I'm still sceptical that's true though. Just because some people sometimes play wacky hands doesn't mean they do it everytime or that everybody does it. If people were that liberal the "players saw flop stat" should be pretty damn high. Just out of curiosity, what does it tend to be?

[RustyBrooks]

Players to 4th on pokerstars right now for razz (fullish tables) is from 18 to 35%

[Praxising]

I just checked .50/10 and it's 30-38%.

But, not all players do this, it's simply very common. And, no matter how common, anyone could have a real hand at any time. The convention there, tho' is to raise with a real hand, limp with a 2-card hand. Might help to remember that .50/1 Razz on Stars is like .25/.50 on FT. Except Stars has a kind of different "culture." A little older, a little more European, a little more recreational. IMO, of course.

[Praxising]

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I'm still sceptical that's true though. Just because some people sometimes play wacky hands doesn't mean they do it everytime or that everybody does it. If people were that liberal the "players saw flop stat" should be pretty damn high. Just out of curiosity, what does it tend to be?

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And you don't have to be skeptical, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just go play there, see how .50/1 works for a few days. I play at the quieter hours when the office folks are playing from work. Evening hours, you can get some real action, more aggro. Check it out, it's not an exclusive club, or anything.

[RustyBrooks]

30-38% isn't exactly nitty but it's not insane either. That number isn't the same as avg vpip because some people will get free looks at 3rd from the bringin.

Speaking of which, man the bringin in pokerstars sucks. Too big. It's still cheaper per hand that FTP but people defend much more, so stealing is less profitable, plus the ante is smaller so the initial pot is smaller, less to steal. I defend a little more but not a lot more.

People also almost never limp-fold like they might on FTP (on FTP at 1/2 you can limp for .25 and then fold if it's $1, but on PS when you limp for .5, you can't fold when it's $1 back to you, you're getting way too good of odds.

And convention be damned, there are way too many people on both sites for whom limping is the default action, regardless of hand strength. Many, many people have PFR ranges of 4-8% (mine is something like 13-15% I think). You can not automatically put these people on a brick or a 9 in the hole. I've seen people limp hands as strong as A46 over and over and over.

I think I commented on this once before - this type of player raises for one of 2 reasons, typically: as a steal, or with the super premium hands. Man is it important to know which is which. I make a note any time one of these guys raises and I get to see his cards.

[RustyBrooks]

Jeez there are several .5/1 tables right now at 20-25% players to 4th. What a grind.

[Raxxmataxx]

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30-38% isn't exactly nitty but it's not insane either. That number isn't the same as avg vpip because some people will get free looks at 3rd from the bringin.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, but it does provide an upper boundary on how often people go to fourth. Anyway, my experience is that people tend to be way too dismissive of their opponents simply based on stakes. Besides, I don't really like playing with the assumption that my opponents suck hard since that'll really stitch you up hard if you're wrong.

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Speaking of which, man the bringin in pokerstars sucks. Too big. It's still cheaper per hand that FTP but people defend much more, so stealing is less profitable, plus the ante is smaller so the initial pot is smaller, less to steal. I defend a little more but not a lot more.

[/ QUOTE ]Heh, My first thought on starting to play stud games was "Well, if we just increase the ante and bring-in by about five times this game would be a lot better."

Seriously, I'd probably enjoy playing a game where everyone antes 1SB. Of course, that would just rake everybody to death in an instant if played below something like 50-100.

[RustyBrooks]

I think I play too tight for higher antes. I don't know. I have a hard time analyzing my own game. Looking forward to hand exchanges.

[tinkerman]

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Hand One:

You make a good point in stating that the player may have a brick in the hole. When he called on third street, he knew that he'd have only one opponent, whom he hoped to outdraw on fourth street. In that case, he'd have the better board. Even if you called after you got a bad draw, he'd have equalized.

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If that is his thinking then great as the odds of outdrawing you is around 4/1 and he is not getting these odds. He is making a losing play and you should be greatful. Fold here and wait for the next occassion.

Bad players can start with 3 good cards as well, so wait and pick a better spot to take is chips.