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  #21  
Old 11-02-2007, 12:23 PM
steamboatin steamboatin is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

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50-60% on the flop kinda scares me, because I always have to remember Sklansky's horse racing paradox where a bunch of weak hands can be a combined massive favorite over a single strong one.

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Sklansky would never make such a redundant point. What he said was a single hand that would be poor heads up, such as 98s, becomes money favourite against a bunch of Ax, Kx type hands. I forget his exact example; these days you can Pokerstove it and see it's elementary.

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It is in Sklansky the Video or Sklansky the Seminar. I can't remember which but it is a stud or draw example and doesn't really apply to holdem. I think you are talking about "schooling" where the more people in the hand against you, the more likely you are to lose, but "schooling" doesn't usually take into consider the pots are huge when your hand holds up so it is more profitable to have a million callers. You lose more pots but win more money.
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  #22  
Old 11-02-2007, 06:45 PM
YertleTurtle YertleTurtle is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

I read the D&B book and am an experienced short-handed limit player. I would definitely recommend it to anyone who is serious about short-handed play but I do feel there are some errors in their recommendations. Examples include - limping from the SB when you are first to act, playing a tighter range from the SB than from the button when first to act and over-valuing off-suit broadway hands in early position (KTo, QTo etc.)

Overall I would recommend the book and it is easier to read than Stox's but I certainly feel there are some flaws.

YT
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  #23  
Old 11-02-2007, 07:10 PM
nomdeplume nomdeplume is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

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stox's book is great too, but it is really a precursor to Mak and Borer's more in-depth material.

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HUH?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Let me just say that I liked the D&B shorthanded book. It's easy to read and I'd recommend it. But to suggest that WITHG is a "precursor" to the D&B book is just nonsense. Seriously.

They both contain numerous hand examples and offer good advice. However IMO the depth and quality of analysis in the Stox book is WAY better than in the D&B book. Also (and this is my main point) the D&B book only *touch* on blind defence. They offer a VERY tight defending range as their 'default', then add the cautionary advice that you should 'play looser' against very aggressive opponents. That's it. They also give very sketchy advice about SB vs BB hands. This is a huge omission given the nature of online six max games.

Stox, by comparison, has used actual databases from winning players to formulate a coherent blind defence strategy, including SB vs BB, restealing from SB, playing from the BB when SB three bets and so on. His book also includes a seperate quiz containing 448 questions to practice blind defence decisions when adjusting to player ranges.

Now granted, the D&B book contains advice about three handed and heads up play, which the Stox book doesn't. But these short chapters hardly warrant the suggestion that the Stox book is somehow a watered down version of the D&B book. The other additional material is basic stuff that most players who are ready to tackle six max will already know about (player metrics, bankroll considerations, tilt etc.)

I can understand that some people may prefer the style of the D&B book to the Stox book, but that's quite different to saying it's a better book.

IMO it's the other way around. If you are new to six max online then I'd suggest getting the borer book first. It's a good book. I'm sure it will help to turn losers into winning players at the low to mid limits. But when you feel the need to learn the game properly, read Stox.
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  #24  
Old 11-02-2007, 10:42 PM
vmacosta vmacosta is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

All, in general my feelings are:

Stox presented a tight and disciplined approach based on years of experience and nearly 1 million hands.

Borer and Mak presented a looser, more advanced strategy that pushes more small edge. I agree it was presented in a less thorough and more speculative (and contained plenty of errors) manner.

That's why I think Stox's book is a good precursor to Borer and Mak's. Stox lays out a conservative groundwork and this level of understanding is necessary to filter out the garbage and pull out the golden nuggets in Borer and Mak's book.
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  #25  
Old 11-02-2007, 11:35 PM
Cactus Jack Cactus Jack is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

What golden nuggets?
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  #26  
Old 11-03-2007, 02:32 AM
YertleTurtle YertleTurtle is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

Stox's hand ranges are based on a more disciplined approach to the game. I wouldn't call his recommendations particularly tight as you will approach the 30/20 game that is recommended here on 2+2 (maybe 28/19 if you only play 6-handed). In my opinion and as pointed out by nomdeplume the essence of mid-stake play and higher is blind stealing and defense. This is loosely covered in the D&B book. Also if you actually crunch the hand ranges recommended in both books they work out to within a percentage point in terms of VPIP. (I'm a big enough dork to have done this).

YT
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  #27  
Old 11-03-2007, 01:41 PM
manic_sh manic_sh is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

Hello everyone. This is Terry Borer, one of the authors of Limit Hold'em: winning short-handed strategies.

First of all, thanks very much for the overall positive reviews. We worked really hard on the book and it is gratifying to hear that others like your work. Having read (but not posted) on twoplustwo for a while, I think this is a good thread for me to chime in on.

First of all, I don't think it matters which book is "better". While there is common material I believe they are overall different books and both will be useful to a short-handed player. I enjoyed the Stox book and would recommend it to others. I like the healthy debate that takes place in twoplustwo as well.

Second, I'd like to clarify my position on the points Yertle mentioned:
[ QUOTE ]
I read the D&B book and am an experienced short-handed limit player. I would definitely recommend it to anyone who is serious about short-handed play but I do feel there are some errors in their recommendations. Examples include - limping from the SB when you are first to act, playing a tighter range from the SB than from the button when first to act and over-valuing off-suit broadway hands in early position (KTo, QTo etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

#1: From the SB we recommend "First-in raise or fold unless you opponent is passive" (pg83). I stand by this. Most of the time it is raise or fold, but passive players give you additional opportunities to make money by exploiting their mistakes. An extreme example is when you are first in from the SB ($2 blind) and the BB ($3 blind) never raises pre-flop. I believe limping in on weak hands is correct here since I'll see a cheap flop.

#2: Should you be tighter from the SB first in, or is it that same (or looser) as from the button? Yertle, I agree our chart is too tight, especially for good players. I think the Stox book is too loose (he says this as well) and so a more optimal number is in the middle but much closer to the Stox side. Looking back at my last 100k hands my stats look a lot like the middle player in Stox's book.

#3: Playing KTo and QTo from early position. We say to steal with this hands from UTG + 1 only and KTo as an expert hand from UTG (six-handed game). I like this play and make money with it. I think it also "balances my range" meaning my opponent is less able to put me on a hand when I sometimes raise with those cards. I sure win a lot of Axx flops. Please note that the players in the Stox book do not play those hands often so the charts say little about them. That doesn't mean they are unprofitable but I agree they are borderline.

In any event, our book is about teaching how to synthesize information together and the charts are just starting points. Excellent play is situational play. I hope our book teaches what information to look for and how to put it together.

If you would like to ask me a question I would be happy to answer. Putting my name in (or Tanenbaum's) would help me a lot in finding the thread.

Thanks,

Terry Borer
LHE: winning short-handed strategies
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  #28  
Old 11-03-2007, 06:19 PM
SuperUberBob SuperUberBob is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

IMO, Stox's book is the definitive book on Limit Hold'em play for middle and high stakes games.

As for small stakes, just get SSHE.
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  #29  
Old 11-03-2007, 06:26 PM
Adman Adman is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

Have you read the Borer/ Mak book?
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  #30  
Old 11-03-2007, 06:44 PM
Jamougha Jamougha is offline
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Default Re: Tanenbaum or Stox?

Why wouldn't you buy both? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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