Razz trny advice, please

[kerze]

Prax,

I've played the Full Tilt $5+.50 tourney, 57 times. I have 2 1sts, 2 2nds, 1 6th, 1 8th, 2 13th and 2 14th for 10 cashs for a total of $389 in prizes vs. $313.50 in buy-in/rake. The fields range from 45 in the lowest to 265 for the highest (which was because a pro was playing). Typically there are about 70 runners (my wins had 73 and 74).

I've also played the $10+$1 5 times with one win and no other cashes. The win as for $120 (there were only 24 runners) for a net profit of $65.

I've played the $24+$2 13 times and have a 13th and 14th for $63 in cashes vs $338 in buy-ins and a $275 loss which more than eats up my profits in the others. (Also I have played a $20+$2 razz once and didn't cash). This is a guaranteed tournament and I largely played because there was a small overlay or it appeared there would be an overlay. I won't play again because I feel I am way overclassed in these and not properly rolled (many of the entries came after my wins in the $5 and $10 tourneys)

[ChipsAhoya]

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If someone raises 3rd, should he fold?

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"it depends"

tip in case you don't: it's ok to c/f fourth even in a reraised pot here if you wind up with 2 cards vs. a likely 4 cards

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Yeah, there is WAY too much money in this pot to give it up. Also, gap concept/etc.

I call a raise here w/ a T but not a J. Fourth is, you have to play poker and try and make a good decision depending on what happenes.

-ChipsAhoya

[Praxising]

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Prax,

I've played the Full Tilt $5+.50 tourney, 57 times. I have 2 1sts, 2 2nds, 1 6th, 1 8th, 2 13th and 2 14th for 10 cashs for a total of $389 in prizes vs. $313.50 in buy-in/rake. The fields range from 45 in the lowest to 265 for the highest (which was because a pro was playing). Typically there are about 70 runners (my wins had 73 and 74).


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Well, I'm impressed, don't you ever play at Stars? You'd love the $10 one-thousand dollar guarantee - you get over a hundred players almost always, but it's deep-stacked and you get a lot of play time.

Come play it with me tomorrow. Let's all go play it - at 7:45 eastern.

[RustyBrooks]

I might if I have time. It's a pretty decent tournament. I think the last tournament hand I posted was from that but I don't remember for sure now.

[kerze]

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Prax,

I've played the Full Tilt $5+.50 tourney, 57 times. I have 2 1sts, 2 2nds, 1 6th, 1 8th, 2 13th and 2 14th for 10 cashs for a total of $389 in prizes vs. $313.50 in buy-in/rake. The fields range from 45 in the lowest to 265 for the highest (which was because a pro was playing). Typically there are about 70 runners (my wins had 73 and 74).


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Well, I'm impressed, don't you ever play at Stars? You'd love the $10 one-thousand dollar guarantee - you get over a hundred players almost always, but it's deep-stacked and you get a lot of play time.

Come play it with me tomorrow. Let's all go play it - at 7:45 eastern.

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I don't know if you should be impressed - especially considering my $26 results. This wasn't meant as a brag and the sample size is fairly small. The point wasn't that it was a brag but rather that the wins will come. The more interesting thing about the results is the distribution of my cashes - I have either gotten heads up or just barely surpassed the bubble except for the 6th place. Although the one 2nd place was a total fluke - I was down to 1 BB after I got crippled on a hand with 8 players left but managed to double up several times in a row and then actually had a 3:1 chip lead heads up before I got my opponent all in on 5th with me having 4 wheel cards (one of which was paired) and my opponent having 2 face cards - of course i bricked twice and he went on to win. I generally don't play scared now when I'm the low stack at the bubble - I'm playing to win and not to cash at the bottom of the payout scale.

I have never played a real money razz tourney on Stars - don't usually have money on there (although one of my best friends IRL came in the top 25 in the WCOOP event after gettng in by sattelite). I can't play tomorrow anyway because I have a sports league thing. I may put some money on Stars and try on some weekend though escpecially if the game is deepstacked.

[mshalen]

I want to expand on Adanthar's comments.

In a cash game the fold is standard since you make your money by winning pots and if you bust out you reload. This situation is tournament razz which had very different goals then cash game razz. In tournament play the majority of the money goes to the last 3 players with the winner getting around 22% of the entire entry. Therefore your strategy is different. You want to be one of the last 3 people standing.

This hand is an excellent example of where the strategy in the two razz worlds diverge. The hero has a short stack- some people think a short stack is less than 5 big bets (Forest in the FTP tournament book) I think anything less than a stack that will allow you to get in a full bet on every street is short. But anyway by almost every standard the hero is short stacked.

If we can all agree that the hero is short stacked then the opponents can also see that he is short stacked and therefore (assuming we have concluded through observation that the hero is a good player) they know that he is looking for a situation to get his whole stack in and try to double up.

The hero's stack while short is still large enough to do some serious damage to the stack of anyone who goes to the mat against him and loses. The hero is worried that the two big stacks have a 5 and an A in the door and it seems this is why he folded. The big stacks (should) understand that if the hero brings it in for a raise he is probably looking for a place to make a stand and has chosen this hand. The big stacks, if they play and lose, will lose 1/3 of their chip stacks. In this situation they wouldn't come in unless they had a good hand. In Lee Nelson's new book, Kill Everyone, he talks about "fear equity" which is the fear you can instill in your opponent by being the first into a pot for a raise (Lee is talking about NL tournaments but the theory still applies here). In otherwords the big stacks know that if they call they are not risking 2,000 chips but 14,000 will eventually go in the pot. In poker you want to put the decision onto your opponent and here, by raisng you are doing just that.

If you pass on this opportunity and wait for a good hand then your stack may be so small that people will call you with much worse hands just to bust you out. While the current levels are 2,000/4,000 we don't know how close, in time, we are to the levels increasing. Without checking my guess is the next level is probably something like 3,000/6,000 with a 500 ante and 1,000 bring in. So what kind of situation will the hero be in once the limits rise?

This looks like an opportunity to maybe pick up some needed chips or a time where if you get lucky your stack will be large enough to give you soem elbow room to play. If you wait untill your stack is lower and the limits are higher even if you do double up you will still be short stacked.

I apologize if this seems to ramble but as Mark Twain said "if I had more time this posting would have been shorter".

[Zagga]

I would only complete this if I were late to act with high cards behind me. Here it is a clear fold. You can survive multiple hands, just wait till 3 cards of 8 and under and commit yourself with that hand.

[SGspecial]

[x] post assumes hero is a good player
[x] post assumes villains are good players
[x] post assumes hero is not on tilt after losing last hand
[x] post assumes villains are smart enough to "fear"
[x] post confuses NLHE and the commitment threshold with FL razz
[x] post ignores the value of sneaking into the money and then looking for a gambling spot

The most probable outcome of this hand if hero had completed in ep is that one of the bigger stacks will have a real hand and raise him to "isolate the short stack". Then prax will have a very tough decision to make when he is clearly behind and without any implied odds since he doesn't have a big enough stack to make the villain pay him off if he were to hit a monster.

It is clearly not a snap completion, and I believe I'd fold >50% of the time.

[adanthar]

SG, we're ITM which matters a lot

[SGspecial]

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SG, we're ITM which matters a lot

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To qoute Emily Littella, "never mind." I really have to start paying attention to the OPs. I still think it's a decision point, but assuming 16-13 place is paid the same and 9-12 is say 20% more $, then I'm raising the majority of the time.