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#11
08-18-2007, 04:56 PM
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Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how good HenryII is, but I would love his play here with a big hand to induce a shove from Ax/hearts. I think this bet would suck for any other purpose. [/ QUOTE ] i agree with this. I think if villain has hearts his standard play is to crai. He's gotta think he has more FE with a c/r than with a lead, so I don't see why he'd be doing this with a drawy type hand. In my experience, both seeing and using this play, the lead is generally a big hand hoping that you'll shove over top. 
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#12
08-18-2007, 04:59 PM
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Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
[ QUOTE ]
1) If you're sure that this is AA/KK/big hearts, and that no way in holy heavens would someone do this with "88" etc, not much reason to post asking for advice, is there? 2) Comment is a good one and entirely valid. If you're going to three bet pre and not take into account the texture of the board, but simply base a decision on whether or not you get lead into, you may as well play without looking at your cards. You have no previous history with this guy to indicate that he'd raise/call a three bet pre and then donk the flop OOP? [/ QUOTE ] Do you play 5-10? do you play against tricky opponents? I obviously posted this b/c I was confused - and I felt WEAK folding (hence the subject heading). But blanket statements like "no point in 3-betting w/ JJ if you are going to fold on a 5-high board" don't help me whatsoever. Your post implies that this is an easy push. I really don't see how that is the case. what kind of cards do you see a competent player making this move with that I am ahead of - besides maybe 10-9 of hearts or something. AA or KK and this is the easiest shove of all time. but JJ is a different story.
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#13
08-18-2007, 05:00 PM
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Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how good HenryII is, but I would love his play here with a big hand to induce a shove from Ax/hearts. I think this bet would suck for any other purpose. [/ QUOTE ] Yea, given that you have an aggro image, I think he's doing this to induce a bluff shove from AK/AQ. This is a weird spot, and I kinda like the fold given that he hasn't ever done this before with you. I just can't see him having air/weaker pair here because in his mind he's probably expecting a shove from you a lot here amirite?
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#15
08-18-2007, 05:08 PM
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Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't know how good HenryII is, but I would love his play here with a big hand to induce a shove from Ax/hearts. I think this bet would suck for any other purpose. [/ QUOTE ] Yea, given that you have an aggro image, I think he's doing this to induce a bluff shove from AK/AQ. This is a weird spot, and I kinda like the fold given that he hasn't ever done this before with you. I just can't see him having air/weaker pair here because in his mind he's probably expecting a shove from you a lot here amirite? [/ QUOTE ] This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. He KNOWS (though we don't have tons of history) that I am aggro and am gonna cb any flop 80%+ of the time. So why lead other than to incude a shove?
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#16
08-18-2007, 05:12 PM
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Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
I'm quite certain I do in fact play against tricky opponents at your levels, champ. Interestingly enough, on 2p2 which is chock full of brilliant responses such as HAHAHAHAHA SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE PWNAMENTS OBV SHOVE SPOT HAHAHAA, you chose to claim that MY commentary doesn't help you at all. Intriguing that you posted it b/c you were "confused" - you've responded several times within an hour that you have him on a set hand range and that he can't have anything you beat. Doesn't seem like you're all that confused to me.
Your opponent can never have 99/TT here? The aforementioned T9 of hearts etc? Air? I'm not sure why you think AA/KK are so prevalent, think he plays them like this? And the point about preflop play is valid. Not every hand is going to be a walk in the park for you where he calls and then hands the pot to you on the flop. If you can't proceed when you get bet into on a pretty good board for your hand, don't 3 bet pre.
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#17
08-18-2007, 05:12 PM
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Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Um push? [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for the insighfulness. This is AA/KK (or big hearts) a lot imo. I've shown a LOT of strength and he donk bets into me almost full pot. [/ QUOTE ] He's 22/16 not 17/12, and I see this donk as weakness unless I have previously seen otherwise.
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#18
08-18-2007, 05:13 PM
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Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
[ QUOTE ]
Why in the holy heavens would someone do this w/ 88 or some other hand I beat? Conceivably he has 6x of hearts or big hearts, and i'm racing. This is rarely total air imo. [/ QUOTE ] Because if he donks 88 you find a fold w/ op's up to JJ apparently.
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#19
08-18-2007, 05:14 PM
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Re: fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't know how good HenryII is, but I would love his play here with a big hand to induce a shove from Ax/hearts. I think this bet would suck for any other purpose. [/ QUOTE ] Yea, given that you have an aggro image, I think he's doing this to induce a bluff shove from AK/AQ. This is a weird spot, and I kinda like the fold given that he hasn't ever done this before with you. I just can't see him having air/weaker pair here because in his mind he's probably expecting a shove from you a lot here amirite? [/ QUOTE ] This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. He KNOWS (though we don't have tons of history) that I am aggro and am gonna cb any flop 80%+ of the time. So why lead other than to incude a shove? [/ QUOTE ] Be careful to not level your self on hands like these, these seem like some far fetched assumptions to make without additional information.
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