A question about Pool (Billirds).

[deacsoft]

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Everyone understands there really is no such thing as rules to bar pool outside whatever the local custom at that bar is right?

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Agreed. However, when both people are from different states and no rules were set in stone prior to beginning play (aside from possibly "no slop")... then this situation arises... an argument begins... and a bet is made on who is correct... what else can you turn to besides official rules.

I don't think you can assume everyone plays by the same rules. They should be established prior to beginning the game. I think if anything is left unsaid it should default to the official rules.

[Duke]

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Jasper,

"I think 1 is the "official" rule"

You are wrong.

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Depends on the governing body. The APA rules count a scratch on the 8 as loss of game. The rulesets have differences. I go with the BCA on these matters, as the APA is a joke, but someone might think that they matter.

EDIT: Grammar

[ocdscale]

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All,

I find it a little hard to believe those of you saying "1" have ever played pool before in a bar or pool hall.

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I think 1 is the "official" rule, even though it's probably never played that way in casual competition.

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I have never seen #1 used. It's also a preposterous rule as a good opponent that's behind on balls can often leave you in a position where you only have a low % shot of avoiding a table scratch.

[El Diablo]

suzzer,

"There may be an "official rule" in bar pool, but it never ever ever matters. Ever. Local custom trumps all."

Agree completely, hence my original answer: "In most bar games it's either #3 or #2 behind the head string."

My response to Jasper simply refers to "official" 8-ball rules, which as you correctly say, generally don't apply to bar games.

[suzzer99]

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[ QUOTE ]
Everyone understands there really is no such thing as rules to bar pool outside whatever the local custom at that bar is right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. However, when both people are from different states and no rules were set in stone prior to beginning play (aside from possibly "no slop")... then this situation arises... an argument begins... and a bet is made on who is correct... what else can you turn to besides official rules.

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Wrong, you ask the bartender or regulars. If bartender doesn't know and there are no regulars then I guess you could think about official rules. I'd rather just do it over at that point and agree on the rules beforehand.

[gumpzilla]

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DKS, tuq:

While ball-in-hand is definitely the rule for many 8-ball situations, I can't think of any bar game I've played where it was ball in hand - it's always ball in hand behind the head string.

However, many pool hall 8-ball games are played with official ball-in-hand rules.

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This meshes with my experience. I've never played ball in hand on scratches in bars, and have often done so in pool halls. Bar pool typically has its own minor variations on the rules depending on where you are; where I used to play, one of the regulars eventually put a list of rules on the wall that became the standard, and it tends to be how I conceive of bar pool. (EDIT: Upon closer reading of the thread, I appear to be the third or fourth person with this insight. But no matter, it's still the truth.)

We did play that a scratch where the 8 isn't pocketed was a loss, but only scratches where you sank or launched the cue, not table scratches. I don't think I've seen anybody play with table scratches if they aren't playing ball in hand; you're just generally thought of as a bitch and lacking a certain manliness if you're not trying to take a genuine shot each turn.

[daryn]

it's 2, but house rules usually play over the real rules of 8-ball, sadly.

[El Diablo]

Duke,

APA rules: "Note: A player attempting to shoot the 8-ball but missing it has fouled, resulting in ball-in-hand for his opponent. This is NOT loss of game."

http://poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

That makes APA, IPT, and BCA (which I also consider the authoritative ruleset) all agreeing on the rule.

[Duke]

Just a link to the APA rules that specify a scratch on the 8 as loss of game:

BCA Rule book

[ocdscale]

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Jasper,

"I think 1 is the "official" rule"

You are wrong.

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Depends on the governing body. The APA rules count a scratch on the 8 as loss of game. I go with the BCA on these matters, but the rulesets have differences, as the APA is a joke, but someone might think that they matter.

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No.
APA Rules:
http://www.celeris.com/games/vp3/help/pages/rules.html
Relevant rules:
Under Eight Ball Rules - Loss of Game
- scratching when playing the eight ball

Under General Rules - Fouls
Scratch – Pocketed the cue ball.
Ball Off Table - Hit a ball off the table. If a ball jumps onto the rail and returns to the table, there is no penalty.
Bad Hit - In eight ball and the low ball first family of games, the cue ball contacts a non-target ball before a legal target ball. For all games, the cue ball does not contact a ball.
No Rail - If no ball is pocketed, and at least one ball does not contact a cushion after the cue ball contacts an object ball. This usually comes up during safety (defensive) play or when the shot is played too softly.

Note, under APA rules, "scratching" is given a very specific defintion, namely pocketing the cue ball. No other foul is grounds for loss of game.

edit: [ QUOTE ]
Just a link to the APA rules that specify a scratch on the 8 as loss of game:

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The rules state quite specifically on page 9 that failure to hit the 8 ball is not a loss.