So [censored] sick, 4 left in Stars 109

[Dave D]

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Dave D,

You used to be a fine poster when 99% of the forum was recreational players and even the good players still sucked compared to now because play in general was 1000x worse two years ago than now.



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Most of the good posters on this forum (ansky, gobbo etc) all made great posts then, and still do now. I refuse to belive there's been a quantum leap of intelligence or poker playing ability in 9 months. Or at the very least that there were no good posters then.

I think I disagree with just about everything in your post. Lets start from the beggining. There's no way you can tell me a 9 months ago the field was that much worse. It's still really bad, it's slightly better now, but there isn't that big a difference at the levels I've played at. I mean, if you're telling me that the 109r plays hugely different sure, especially at the FT. That still doesn't really change the advice though.

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Now, as a recreational player who has not worked as hard to improve as the rest of the general forum population (just my guess based on how rarely you have posted during the last 9 months or whatever), you maintain a sense of confidence that really isn't justified.


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I'm not sure if I should be insulted at being called a recreational player. I'd say I'm semi pro, but whatever. I def. make money playing, which is generally the opposite of my definition of recreational player.

I stopped posting because:

1. I got tired of the increase of "should I fold KK PF" threads. And the number of times I could answer a post by saying read the FAQ.

2. I'm in Law School. I put poker aside in October, except for winter/spring break. I seriously doubt this forum is even ahead of where it was 3 years ago. Generally the people I've talked to say 2p2 was a better forum back then, but whatever. All I know is I still see the same amount, or more of the results oriented-belong in BBV posts I saw back then.
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The turn check is not bad at all.


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I think it is. I think it means that OP is scared of losing with AA in a HU to the flop, pot (and only 5 handed) because he's scared of trips or something. Hands that beat us: AK or KK, or some wierd set/two pair. Hands we're still ahead of that call PF: QQ/JJ/TT, maybe even 99, AQ, or maybe AJ. If villian has those, great, we can say we lost with AA HU. But winning this pot is huge, and I don't play scared of monsters. Also, the turn check basically says I missed my draw, my AQ, or whatever. It makes no sense to me.

I also hate putting in 1/3 of my stack, and then folding at any point. So obviously the river call is better than a fold, but I'm putting in my money on this turn.

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I hope this wasn't too harsh.

go Deacs

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Despite your condescending tone, I'm not really offended. I just know you're wrong. Also, you haven't really given reasons for disagreeing with the post, just attacking the poster, which is always a sign of a weak person or argument.

edit: just noticed OP only had about 16 BB to start the hand. There's no way I'm ever folding AA that short.

[djk123]

yo your reasoning for why you think a turn check is bad doesn't make sense. You say you wanna shove cause you just wanna take the pot down. If anything that is somewhat scared.

Checking will extract the most value. A shove on turn looks really strong. villain will probably only look us up with a K and maybe QQ /jj if he got there with those. But if we check, we give the villain the opportunity to bluff the river or even mistakenly value bet or check/call with a worse hand.

[Dave D]

What I meant was that I don't mind a fold on the turn because we're winning a lot anyway (namely a little more than 1/3 our previous stack). I think we're still getting called by worse hands there that I mentioned a fair amount of the time too.

Generally I don't like giving free cards, even if the board isn't very drawy. I'd rather try to get value, and no bet less than all in really makes sense here (unless we have a set and really don't care about giving free cards, and are trying to look donkish and encourage a push after we make a 1/3 pot bet or something specific like that).

Checking the turn is gonna make villian do things like he did and put us to a really (unneccessarily) hard decision. Villian is calling a bet on the turn if he's calling one on the river.

[WuTank]

Dave D we cant be behind against some weird 2pair hand, we have the best 2pair possible.
We also are are giving no real free cards, since he has only 2 outs to improve.
His (realistic range here) is KT/KJ+,88-KK or some random ace,which is actually pretty unrealistic since who peels A high against a tightie on a FT
He is drawing dead with any Ace but the very unliekly ace rags who paired the board.
That said, we are only getting value here out of the pairs and lose to the Kx`s.
I also think villian will be able to fold the lower poker pairs of his, since only AQ and AJ of Hero`s range completly miss this board and only than 88 - TT are good here.
So we only getting value out of JJ and QQ and lose to Kx`s.
I think turning this AA into a bluff / thin valuebet catcher on the river is the best line possible and I would play it the same as OP.

[8Adam8]

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Checking the turn is gonna make villian do things like he did with worse hands that he now thinks he is valuebetting or with air hands that he has now seen fit to bluff and put us to a really easy decision.

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Villian is calling a bet on the turn if he's calling one on the river.

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no

[Inyaface]

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Would he really value bet 77-QQ like this? I'd think those hands would check-call for bluff value rather than try to get you to call with a worse hand (what worse hand can you possibly have that will call a bet, seriously). Not to mention that many of those big pairs will reraise preflop.

There IS a reason he bet so small, and it's not to get you to fold a weak made hand. I think you can find a fold here.

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Uhhhhh what?
Folding here is absolutely terrible

[2005]

Yeah, so, this is pretty much the easiest call of all time. I think this is the perfect card to check the turn with. We are not playing scared, we are getting value when ahead and saving chips when behind. That is a flop that pretty often gets called by like 77-TT which all seem like reasonable smooth calling hands pre and are also hands that will fire the river hoping to either fold out a better hand or get called by AQ. Turn check means insta call on the river.

[betgo]

Does your location say "loving Jews", so you can get away with BBV posts like this?

You are lucky villain slow played KK so much, as he should have busted you.

[Dave D]

Ok I missed that we're ahead of two pairs, LDO. Kinda strengthens the argument.

What are people doing if villian pushes river after the check? Seems pretty plausable villian would do this after hero shows turn weakness. And it's not really an overbet, its around the size of the pot.

[betgo]

People don't flat call raises with kings that much. As played, is OK. However, I would probably bet the turn and as played push the river.