I shouldn't even have to ask this probably but...

[Jay Riall]

It's not very bad obviously, its just there is a better line to take imo.

[skier_5]

I completely agree TWP, though I think your example hand is a little different since you don't have any showdown value.

[wpr101]

Is nobody taking into account that both of these players had somewhat fishy stats in the 35/15ish range. Does that make us less or more eager to get AI? serious question.

[LearnedfromTV]

For reasons stated by several above I think TP+FD is the best big draw to play passively, within the context of wanting an overall metagame where you often play big draws fast.

I don't hate these hands though. Thing is, even though it's hard to hate these hands, because basically any action but folding is going to be +EV on the flop, the difference between the best line and another profitable line when you flop great can be as significant as the difference between a profitable and unprofitable line in other situations. This seems obvious but it can be too easy to dismiss thinking about hands like these with "it doesn't matter what you do," when it does.

[skier_5]

[ QUOTE ]
Is nobody taking into account that both of these players had somewhat fishy stats in the 35/15ish range. Does that make us less or more eager to get AI? serious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's fine to get it all in, there are better lines that stack worse hands more often though.

[Allinlife]

I think it's necessary to play these hands fast on the flop most of the time because

a) to balance out with times you have set/2pair.
b) folding on blank turn sucks [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
c) it's not rare to see a worse combo draw shove like that esp oop.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Edit: Also, your first line "This hand doesn't really prove your point because if you missed the turn which happens 80% of the time you would lose a decent size pot." could not possibly be more backwards. Unless you're suggesting that I would hit the turn more often by getting the money in on the flop? I'm not making winning the hand any more likely by getting the money in on the flop. I still miss the turn 80% of the time, obviously. But if I don't push the flop, then I can fold the turn and save myself some dough when I miss!

[/ QUOTE ]

So you disagree with the following statement? In this exact hand you lose a sizable pot on the turn 80% of the time when you call the check raise knowing that villian always pots the turn and that you are folding to that bet.

You don't even read what I'm writing before spouting off your talking points.

[/ QUOTE ]
Look. I tried twice to clearly explain to you why your thinking was wrong. If you think I'm just 'spouting off', fine. Keep taking this line and keep getting stacked by donks who can't fold KJ when you have KT + flush draw.

As for your 'lose a sizeable pot 80%' argument, why don't you ask yourself what the alternative is? With my line, I call the flop and fold a blank turn if he pushes, since I don't have odds to call. In your line, you get it all in on the flop. Why don't you explain to me how your line is any better than my line, but just CALLING on the turn (chasing your draw with incorrect odds)? Seems like it would be exactly the same, except in my line I can make the +EV fold instead of making your -EV call (in essence).

[aejones]

OK I'm not going to even read anymore of what TWP wrote becuase all I read in this was "these are not good despite being standard."

I will assure you, however, that these are good and standard.

End thread.

[AceCR9]

I really hate your all in call in hand 2. This is a set almost every time.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
OK I'm not going to even read anymore of what TWP wrote becuase all I read in this was "these are not good despite being standard."

I will assure you, however, that these are good and standard.

End thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
You should have kept reading. I already made this stupid post for you.