Deep (how to get the money in?)

[orange]

also, I would full pot the flop. And PF is pretty bad...you should be raising to build a pot if anything else (vs. UTG+1).

[SonOfWestwood]

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And PF is pretty bad...you should be raising to build a pot if anything else (vs. UTG+1).

[/ QUOTE ]

This, I think, is an important point about pre-flop. Other than the reasons mentioned for raising pre-flop, another very important reason is because you're deep, and there are two other players at the table with deepish stacks. Even if you typically don't open raise small PP's pre-flop (even though you should be), the deep stacks really make not raising this pre-flop even worse.

[carrotsnake]

Does everyone seriously just look at their hand and decide that "OMG, PP, I GOTS TO RAISE". I'd probably raise just cuz UTG+1 and CO are deep with me, but if the table is playing loose and CO or UTG are tough players, raising this hand isn't that amazing, even more so with loose calling station short stacks. I don't think limping is awesome, but I think raising is meh in this spot. I'd just fold it unless I felt CO or UTG+1 were willing to felt to light postflop(which by the way is unlikely, cuz at best we hit bottom set and are the preflop aggresor, so they probably only get their stacks in with oversets or big draws, not just overpairs). Fwiw, I wouldn't 3 bet here. I think I'd call and lead half pot on turn or something of that matter. He's got AA/KK almost everytime and might fold that to a 3 bet but won't to a smaller type lead on turn.

[lucky_mf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And PF is pretty bad...you should be raising to build a pot if anything else (vs. UTG+1).

[/ QUOTE ]

This, I think, is an important point about pre-flop. Other than the reasons mentioned for raising pre-flop, another very important reason is because you're deep, and there are two other players at the table with deepish stacks. Even if you typically don't open raise small PP's pre-flop (even though you should be), the deep stacks really make not raising this pre-flop even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Enough with the pre-flop-raise stuff already! Clearly it would have been better to raise given the way the hand played out. That said, the way the hand played out was just one possible path out of many (one I would have weighted pretty low by frequency). For most of the ways this hand would of played out raising pf was wrong. I really believe this.

I have no issues with raising small pp - it just makes a whole lot less sense with fishy players acting behind because there is very little chance of winning the pot without a set if I did raise and an good-excellent change of playing a moderate-big pot if I were to hit a set - particulary because they probably think I'm full of sh.t (note my 26/18/6.75 stats for the 500 hand session).

I was just reading the CTS well thread and he talks about tightening up pf raising standards from the CO when the button is a fish. I think this situation is somewhat similar.

Lucky

[carrotsnake]

I agree with lucky :/ <3

[.xxxx.]

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raise PF.

the flop you can do alot of things. Had the board been a bit drier, I think this is an easy call. It is possible that villan could be c/r-ing with AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or something like that. I would raise here to $250 and shove a turn. I can see calling and shoving a turn though.

[/ QUOTE ]

def raise 22 UTG-BTN

orange, flop play was B,R,hero? instead of c/r, but AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is still an equally likely holding. Why hasn't anyone discussed stack sizes yet? By limping in pf and not 3-betting pf, the only hand that could be betting this strong with these kinds of stacks is a set. Even an unthinking villain would have alarms going off on the flop if you push it to $250. I'm much more in favor of calling and c/r turn for this reason.

[re-nakken]

I call and c/r turn.

[Montezuma21]

[ QUOTE ]

I was just reading the CTS well thread and he talks about tightening up pf raising standards from the CO when the button is a fish. I think this situation is somewhat similar. [ QUOTE ]


Link?
for those who say advocate a PF raise, if CO's stack were $70, would that change your mind?

[winterGT]

Why is everyone so hellbent on raising 22 UTG? If people at the table suck and are generally passive, limping is fine.

[orange]

i did mention pot building in the pf statement in my 2nd post.

i did misread the post, i think that calling/doing something on the turn is an option as is 3-betting. this deep, i dont mind 3-betting to $250 or calling and leading the turn.