Proper handling of mucked cards after heads-up all-in

[bav]

What's the proper procedure to follow if two folks are heads-up in a cash game, all-in, and one tries to muck his cards before the dealing is done? In a tourney, this isn't allowed--no chip dumping, and all that. But in a cash game?

Tonight two guys got heads up and the first flipped over his cards showing trips. The other guy tossed his cards forward face down. Dealer put out the turn and the river, double-pairing the board (JJ44). Then the dealer just kinda stared at the guy who had mucked and waited. And waited. Finally two or three people at the other end of the table start babbling about what hands might be good now and the guy who had mucked reaches out and turns over AJ for the boat. Suddenly now the dealer figures out "oops" and says "I'm sorry, but you had already mucked" and starts to kill his hand. AJ protests. Dealer says "sorry". AJ protests and I suggest that we need a floor. Dealer doesn't want to call the floor, and tries to convince AJ to just give up the pot with a "do you really want to argue this?" AJ says "YES I want the pot!" Real floor isn't in the room and a dealer substituting for the floor comes over and says AJ wins because "it might not work this way everywhere, but we have a policy that we don't kill hands on a technicality".

I wouldn't have given the pot to AJ because... the dealer waited a very long time, didn't take the clearly mucked cards, and it wasn't until table chatter erupted that AJ finally figured out maybe he had something after all. Without the table chatter... well... I dunno. And if the dealer was going to claim the cards were dead because the guy mucked them already, WHY did he give the player 10 seconds to think about what he had and ultimately reclaim the cards? If he thought the guy's hand was already dead, the dealer should have just tucked the cards into the muck the instant the river was dealt (or sooner).

So if a player gives up like this before the dealing is done in a cash game, should the dealer kill the cards immediately and not even finish the deal? Should he kill it and finish? Should he leave them face down and finish the deal and insta-muck them? Or should he do like this guy and finish the deal and just stare at the player waiting for his approval to really bury his hand in the muck (I'm betting this is not the correct answer)?

[chesspain]

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What's the proper procedure to follow if two folks are heads-up in a cash game, all-in, and one tries to muck his cards before the dealing is done? In a tourney, this isn't allowed--no chip dumping, and all that. But in a cash game?

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So if a player gives up like this before the dealing is done in a cash game, should the dealer kill the cards immediately and not even finish the deal?

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This would be my choice. Once the player mucks, the hand is over, and all of the cards should be gathered together into the muck, in preparation for the next shuffle. Indeed, having the dealer continue to deal would be akin to rabbit hunting.

[psandman]

When this happens I muck the cards and stop dealing (except in a tourney situation).

[youtalkfunny]

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When this happens I muck the cards and stop dealing (except in a tourney situation).

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[Rottersod]

How far forward did he toss the cards? Was it obvious that he was mucking them or just frustrated at seeing what his opponent had? I guess I feel that had he really threw them towards the muck then the delaer should have mucked them and stopped dealing. Since he didn't and the guy ended up turning the cards over I'd have to award him the pot although I wouldn't be very happy with this situation since he obviously got help from other players. IMO, if he really did throw those cards forward then the dealer shouldn't have waited so long.

[bav]

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How far forward did he toss the cards? Was it obvious that he was mucking them or just frustrated at seeing what his opponent had?

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Not a doubt in the world he was tossing 'em in. Sure, he was frustrated his AJ had run into K4 (or whatever it was) on a J44 board, but the cards were out there almost even with the board. Sure seemed to me like that hand shoulda (okok... "should of" ...errrr, no wait... "should have") ended at that point. AJ had to reach far to grab 'em back and turn the cards over and he seriously waited a solid >5 seconds, probably closer to 10. Just kinda count to 5 and imagine the dealer staring at the guy for those 5 seconds. Then chatter starts from other players. Then it finally dawns on AJ, "golly I ended up with the winner" and he tentatively reaches out and flips 'em.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Bav,

I don't want to get into discussing the dozen or so procedural errors but I'd lean toward giving AJ the pot. My reasons:

- The action was complete. What may have looked like a muck did not impact the other player's action (since he held on to his cards).

- Despite the commentary and speculation from non-involved players it is possible that the AJ hand would have figured things out on his own. And he did turn up the hand on his own.

- The AJ hand was clearly discernible.

Cliff Notes: In the case of a major multiple SNAFUs, try to award the pot to the best hand.

~ Rick

[RR]

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Bav,

I don't want to get into discussing the dozen or so procedural errors but I'd lean toward giving AJ the pot. My reasons:

- The action was complete. What may have looked like a muck did not impact the other player's action (since he held on to his cards).

- Despite the commentary and speculation from non-involved players it is possible that the AJ hand would have figured things out on his own. And he did turn up the hand on his own.

- The AJ hand was clearly discernible.

Cliff Notes: In the case of a major multiple SNAFUs, try to award the pot to the best hand.

~ Rick

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There would have been a very different outcome if someone had spoken up before the dealer finished dealing. As usual Rick is correct in that when the best hand has called all the bets they get the pot in virtually all cases.