Society, Intuition and Logic

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]
I really do feel like I'm arguing against some stereotyped, pejorative definition of "logic" that is really common among idiots but is a little surprising on SMP.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by "logic"? Like I asked earlier: "Your formulation seems to define non-logical epistemologies out of existence -- as fodder for the ultimate and inevitable logical process -- and what does that get us?"

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is simply that there are some kinds of information that logic does a relatively poor job of illuminating. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Give me an example.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already gave you two. One you explained away with (apparently) an unusually broad definition of "logic" -- a point more about the words involved than the concept itself -- the other you ignored completely.

[VarlosZ]

Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, by "logic" I'm referring to a wholly or somewhat deliberate thought process that uses axioms, evidence, and conclusions drawn from such to reach one or more ultimate conclusions. By "intuition" I'm referring to a primarily emotive response, though it need not be a 'snap-judgment.'

To go back to my previous example, it's the difference between knowing how your mother feels about you because you weighed the evidence and drew the appropriate conclusion, and knowing because you just feel a certain state of being to be true. In this case, the latter epistemological process tends to give a fuller and more nuanced understanding of the relationship that the former.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

I dont think the speed of decision is the essential distinguishing factor between logic and intuition, although I agree it is often the case. I think a logical approach involves only accepting what can be deduced from prior, accepted axioms or theorems. I understood Splendour to be labelling intuition "everything else".

I consider it at least possible to mull things over and still form an intuitive judgement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that's true. I would say in those cases intuition is often less useful if you go against the logical conclusion. Sometimes logic doesn't give you a good answer and you have to rely on your intuition though.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I dont think the speed of decision is the essential distinguishing factor between logic and intuition, although I agree it is often the case. I think a logical approach involves only accepting what can be deduced from prior, accepted axioms or theorems. I understood Splendour to be labelling intuition "everything else".

I consider it at least possible to mull things over and still form an intuitive judgement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that's true. I would say in those cases intuition is often less useful if you go against the logical conclusion. Sometimes logic doesn't give you a good answer and you have to rely on your intuition though.

[/ QUOTE ]

That touches on the aspect I've been pointing to. let's use VarlosZ's situation - He knows intuitively that him mother loves him ( darn, I wish he'd have thrown in something about apple pie). We discover that she's been slowly poisoning him to collect insurance and arranging a sell him to the gypsies and keeping the pie.
which source of knowledge is considered 'right' or 'true'. His personal intuition or our objective analysis?

Don't you get tired of seeing the mother on TV saying, "My Jimmie would never do that" often just as they run the juice through him. or the neighbors saying of the child molester, "he was such a great guy." or seeing your friends or relatives getting conned by salesmen, politicians, gold-diggers, gigolo's, and the normal assortment of misreading peoples intent and motive.

Sure, our intuition in some situations is better than a coin flip, in others it's our worst enemy and in all the final judgment on whether the intuition was working for us or not will be by a logical analysis and we don't even have to know the intuitive mechanism to do the evaluation.

Related to this is a standard approach I use -- If I want to know the reasons BeckyLou did something I don't ask BeckyLou, I ask her friends and relatives, and it's not that I consider BeckyLou a liar I merely consider her human. Our intuitions of others maybe shaky but our intuitions about ourselves are often worse.

aside - like most people I have overconfidence in my reading ability, but I do have a decent enough public track record to be called into negotiations to act as the people observer, to identify the hard and soft spots in the opposition position for example. My approach to my own reads is - Trust but Verify.

luckyme

[Splendour]

quote: "That touches on the aspect I've been pointing to. let's use VarlosZ's situation - He knows intuitively that him mother loves him ( darn, I wish he'd have thrown in something about apple pie). We discover that she's been slowly poisoning him to collect insurance and arranging a sell him to the gypsies and keeping the pie."


Ha gotcha. Both can be right. His mother could be insane and love him and think she has to kill him for some insane purpose and at the same time need the money for some other insane purpose.

But I did find your "verify your reads" as very insightful advice with some practical value. Instead of just reading I may need to incorporate some verification techniques into my game. Thanks for the tip!

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
quote: "That touches on the aspect I've been pointing to. let's use VarlosZ's situation - He knows intuitively that him mother loves him ( darn, I wish he'd have thrown in something about apple pie). We discover that she's been slowly poisoning him to collect insurance and arranging a sell him to the gypsies and keeping the pie."


Ha gotcha. Both can be right. His mother could be insane and love him and think she has to kill him for some insane purpose and at the same time need the money for some other insane purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

And his intuition about his mothers state is so great that he caught the 'she loves me' part and missed the "then again, she is INSANE".
These are 'reads' he should trust?

That's skipping over the question of whether we are talking about the same mental state when we are referring to 'love' -
a) a normal persons love for me.
b) an insane persons love for me.

Equivocation seems to be a general problem for you.

luckyme

[Splendour]

quote: And his intuition about his mothers state is so great that he caught the 'she loves me' part and missed the "then again, she is INSANE".
These are 'reads' he should trust?

Why can't there be concurrent situations and he's only getting the read from one from conditioning but due to timing and other things, maybe he's in denial, he doesn't get that she just lost it. It doesn't make the first read wrong it just complicates things. Look at that lady in Texas that killed 4 or 5 kids. The schizophrenic nurse. Her husband knew she was sick and the family probably thought she loved them they just didn't know her illness had stepped up the ladder into the psychotic stage.

[tame_deuces]

What do you mean by intuition exactly?

If you mean quick, fast thinking then we need that. We're biological computers in more need of quick'n'dirty than we are in need of continous quality. 'Snake! AH! BAD!' , 'Sugar....mmmm...'.

Being somewhat right most of the time is more than good enough for much of life purposes. But when you dwelve into the abstract knowledge models it won't cut it.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
quote: And his intuition about his mothers state is so great that he caught the 'she loves me' part and missed the "then again, she is INSANE".
These are 'reads' he should trust?

Why can't there be concurrent situations and he's only getting the read from one from conditioning but due to timing and other things, maybe he's in denial, he doesn't get that she just lost it. It doesn't make the first read wrong it just complicates things. Look at that lady in Texas that killed 4 or 5 kids. The schizophrenic nurse. Her husband knew she was sick and the family probably thought she loved them they just didn't know her illness had stepped up the ladder into the psychotic stage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again - do you think you are referring to the same mental experience/state when you compare an insane homocidal persons love of you to an normal persons love of you. you would actually claim " yep, they both love me. oh, and one wants to kill me in a barbaric way" ?

would that make the use of the term 'love' not as comforting as VarlosZ seemed to want it to be for us?
"She loves you."
" Yikes, hellllp, I'm outta here"
luckyme

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
"She loves you."
"Yikes, hellllp, I'm outta here"

[/ QUOTE ]

When is this not the correct play?