What defines an angleshoot?

[chube]

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I'd say a decent definition of an angle is doing just about anything at a live table that it would be impossible to do when playing internet poker.

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Stare at a person? Pretend to look nervous? There are all kinds of things that you can do at a live table but can't do online, so I'd have to disagree with you here.

[chillrob]

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I'd say a decent definition of an angle is doing just about anything at a live table that it would be impossible to do when playing internet poker.

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Stare at a person? Pretend to look nervous? There are all kinds of things that you can do at a live table but can't do online, so I'd have to disagree with you here.

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Hey, I said it was a decent definition, not a perfect one.
I hardly even consider those two examples to be "doing" much of anything.

Technically though, you can stare in a certain direction and pretend to look nervous when playing poker online, but neither of those will accomplish anything...

[MRBAA]

I don't think this is an angleshot -- deceptive talk about the strength of your own hand while a hand is ongoing is generally acceptable. For example, if a third suited card hits the turn and you say "Be careful, I have the flush", I think it's fine. At showdown, if you say "I have the flush" when you know you don't, hoping to get opponent to muck, that's an angleshoot. As psandman said, in one case opponent is NOT entitled to know your hand, in the other he or she IS entitled.

[UATrewqaz]

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1. An angle is not against the rules. It is legal.
2. An angle is in the gray area of the rules. It is "pushing the envelope"
3. An angle is against the "spirit and intent of the rules".

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4. An angle shoot is an attempt to manipulate the game without explicitly breaking the rules.

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I've been thinking of the most succinct definition I can and the best I could come up with was...

Deceiving the other player(s) and/or the dealer about the actions of the hand or final outcome of the hand.

You are allowed to be deceptive IN your actions, but your actions must be clear. Attempting to disguise the actions themselves is angleshooting.

[bav]

I defined angle-shooting once as skirting the edge of the rules. Doing things that are right on the bleeding edge that are perhaps technically legal, but pretty shady, or perhaps not legal but typically carry no penalty, or even just downright against the rules and a serious breach. The angle shooters just count on floor people being pushovers. Yeah, the mild shots may be ruled in their favor 95% of the time, the major breaches they may get away with 5% of the time... But that's profitable. And if there's no real penalty for doing it, they have little incentive to straighten up.

There ain't enough floor people like RR out there who won't tolerate the tricks.

[1969Cowboy]

RR? Ricky Rudd? The NASCAR driver? Who is RR?

[bav]

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RR? Ricky Rudd? The NASCAR driver? Who is RR?

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Look down near the bottom of your list of threads for B&M. You'll see something like:
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Moderator: Mat Sklansky, *TT*, RR

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That would be the RR of whom I speak.

You're obviously very new here. Welcome to B&M.

[1969Cowboy]

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RR? Ricky Rudd? The NASCAR driver? Who is RR?

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Look down near the bottom of your list of threads for B&M. You'll see something like:
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Moderator: Mat Sklansky, *TT*, RR

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That would be the RR of whom I speak.

You're obviously very new here. Welcome to B&M.

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Thanks bav. I lurk mostly...and I don't even do that a whole lot.

[popesc]

Here are some specific examples of angleshoots that I have personally observed:

1) hiding high value chips in the bottom back row of your stack so opponents get inaccurate chip counts for you.

2) leaning back in your chair to see the hole cards of others. (this was recently done online)

3) declaring your hand incorrectly at showdown to entice your opponent to muck a winning hand

4) Mucking a hand into an opponents hand to kill it and consequently award the pot to a friend

5) Softplaying friends

Different people will have different ethics, so there will always be some debate over what exactly constitutes an angle shoot.

[Edit: removed something stupid]

[AngusThermopyle]

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1) hiding high value chips in the bottom back row of your stack so opponents get inaccurate chip counts for you.


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Against the rules in most places.

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2) leaning back in your chair to see the hole cards of others. (this was recently done online)


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Cheating

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3) declaring your hand incorrectly at showdown to entice your opponent to muck a winning hand


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Angle

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4) Mucking a hand into an opponents hand to kill it and consequently award the pot to a friend


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Cheating, period.

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5) Softplaying friends


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Not illegal. Not angle