Etiquette question: sitting out after your button

[Jeff_B]

[ QUOTE ]
if you have a 3BB/100 edge on me, and i pull A on you then i'll have a 15BB/100 edge on you, and if I pull B i'll have a 7BB/100 edge on you, and if i pull c then you'll have a 2.9BB/100 edge on me

numbers are just illustrative, i didn't do any work in coming up with them

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL this made me crack up

I used to play alot of low limit heads up and I was a fish and it did annoy me when someone played one hand and left...
The main part of heads up is adapting to their play and thats hard to do in 1 hand.

There was a guy on FTP that used to play his button and sit out constantly and he drove me crazy because he was very aggro as well so I was betting and raising think my pair was good and he had a set
I prob dropped a few hundred BB trying to beat this guy in 1 hand at a time.

IMO though you can leave whenever you want but should keep autopost off when sitting alone if you dont want to play anyone.. yes it happens and really there is nothing anyone can do but complain...

[gehrig]

[ QUOTE ]
yes it happens and really there is nothing anyone can do but complain...

[/ QUOTE ]
i email full tilt support when A happens to me

they usually say that they've warned the offending player and then that player doesn't hit and run me in the future

[baronzeus]

this is how HU limit holdem works. whoever wants to quit the other guy has a small edge. but he usually makes up for it because he's either a) giving up something in quitting a guy who's stuck or b) not as good as his opponent, because good opponents dont quit worse opponents usually

[daryn]

haha are you serious? you email ftp support about hit and runs? loooooooool can't wait to get some $$ on full tilt

[threeonefour]

A and B are definitely unethical (of course not illegal) the 'i didn't realize you were a great player until after i posted' is not a legitimate excuse, its just a rationalization that one might fall back on in order to hit and run in a necessarily +EV manner.

even if you were playing against of the god of HU gods you can play 1 MORE HAND and make everything even before splitting. 2 hands HU against your superior isn't going to crush you.

[gehrig]

[ QUOTE ]
haha are you serious? you email ftp support about hit and runs? loooooooool can't wait to get some $$ on full tilt

[/ QUOTE ]
i'd rather nittily complain to support then give up .15BB whenever i want to play and all four HU tables FT spawns have someone who is going to play their button and quit me at them

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
but just give two minutes notice before you quit and you don't have to worry about any ethical crap

[/ QUOTE ]

As an aside to the main point of this thread, I don't give notice when I'm quitting a guy. The main reason for this is I never play people who would do that for me. I have not yet found a respectful fish. Am I high or low on the HU douche scale? (note that I sometimes quit decent to slightly fishy players instantly if they go on any sort of rush)

-DeathDonkey

[sweetjazz]

Here are some actual numbers related to gehrig's calculation. Let's assume that I am playing a player I will refer to Shark. In a HU match Shark has a 1 BB/100 edge over me with an equal number of buttons on each side. Let's say that I win 5 BB/100 winrate while I have the button, while he has a 7 BB/100 winrate when he has the button.

If we just play 1 hand, my button, I will win 0.05 BB on average.

If we play 3 hands, my button twice and his button once, I will win 0.03 BB on average.

If we 71 hands, 35 buttons for him and 36 for me, I will lose 0.65 BB on average.

Okay fair enough, but let's compare those EVs to what would happen if I wait one more hand and play the button each time.

Well after 2 hands, his EV is 0.02 BB.
After 4 hands, it is 0.04 BB.
After 72 hands, it is 0.72 BB.

Notice that in each scenario I have gained an edge of 0.07 BB. Why is it douchey to do so in the first two cases, but not the third case? Is it solely because in the first two cases the Shark can perceive what is happening to him, but in the third case enough activity occurs in the middle for him to fail to realize the EV he just lost?

It seems to me that an argument can be made that a) and b) are douchey if and only if c) is (equally) douchey. What do you all make of this argument?

[The Funky Llama]

I think the main reason why A/B are more douchey than C is because it is usually perceived as a pure angle shoot. In many cases A/B will happen solely because the player wants to exploit the edge available when you are the button.

In case C, enough hands go by that the guy who posts the BB first can have a positive expectation even if the other guy plays more buttons. When 2 guys play headsup they both usually think they are the better player. So as long as they can get enough hands in to have a positive expectation, they don't really care about losing EV from playing less buttons because they still figure they have a positive expectation, unlike case A or B. If a guy will only play you when he is the button, it is probably impossible to win unless the guy is terrible.

[threeonefour]

the reason why is simple. you say you are losing the same amount either way, but you aren't.


lets consider Shark.

lets say i do A 10,000 times to shark (or maybe shark and 9,999 of his similarly skilled buddies)
lets say i do B 10,000 times to shark
now try C.

see the difference? you would be up lots of money in scenario A and B, C still depends on who the better player is, you but you do get a significant boost that may make you profitable if you are similar in skill level. i would say consciously always trying to start/end a session on the button is a douche move, but its a world away from A and B.