Theory behind big Add-On's?

[Small Fry]

Lets say the structure is $20 buy in - T2000 / $20 rebuy - T2000 / $20 add on - T3000

I need some help understnding exactly the purpose of setting up your tournament with this structure. Specifically the add on. Unless it's purely for increasing the pot then I guess I understand.

I assume almost everyone does the add on so why not just charge them more up front and increase the chip counts. Say $30 buy in - T2500 / $30 rebuy - T2500. Do the players just feel better paying $20 three times rather than $30 twice?

I also understand everyone likes a bigger prize pool but it's the players themselves that fund it. If I put out $50 for a chance to win $500 it's the same as putting out $100 to win $1000. Theoretically it's the better players that benefit. Do we all believe we're that "better player" so the whole rebuy / add on system benefits us by all the fish dumping in dead money?

Am I being to cycnical? It just seems with this structure I'm telling my players "It'll only cost you $20 to buy in initially but I've created a blind structure that will pretty much require you to cough up another $20 later if you want to compete. But before you get to that stage you also have to deal with the possibility of losing the chips I'm giving you now (which in effect is an insufficient amount unless you get real lucky) in which case you'll need to buy more (of the same insufficient level)"

Somebody set me straight. Tell me I'm an idiot (about the add on, not just in general) and just don't get it.

[lmcjaho]

Personally, I have not been playing in re-buy/add-on events for very long (about 1 year now I guess) and at first they annoyed me because it seemed to give an unfair advantage to deep-pocket players while I was left scrimping.

Now, after playing weekly in these type of events for a year, I have realized that a smart TAG approach through the rebuy period can (admittedly with a bit of luck) easily build a huge stack from all the donkeys with deep pockets who are willing to reload a dozen times.

The add-on is a nice option in case you play TAG but hit a donkey who sucks out and cripples you - and since the add-on is usually applied at a point where the BB is getting up there it just makes sense for it to be a bigger amount than the starting stack for the same price - it's all about relative value...

[PantsOnFire]

The add-on only really makes sense in unlimited rebuy tournaments and if it's at the end of the rebuy period. So I would tend to agree with your sentiments.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say the structure is $20 buy in - T2000 / $20 rebuy - T2000 / $20 add on - T3000

I need some help understnding exactly the purpose of setting up your tournament with this structure. Specifically the add on. Unless it's purely for increasing the pot then I guess I understand.


Somebody set me straight. Tell me I'm an idiot (about the add on, not just in general) and just don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're an idiot.

(had to be done) :P

Besides building the prize pool, it gives the players who DIDN'T rebuy a chance to build their stacks, vs. those who did rebuy and got lucky and built THEIR stacks.

My limited experience with rebuy tourneys is that the structure is set high enough that if you just coast along and hit the add-on period, you're extremely short-stacked if you DON'T add on.

Additionally, it gives people a chance to overcome bad luck early- one of my tourneys, AQ vs. AK in the first round get all of the money in on an AAx flop and the river Queen sent AK home. Rebuys allow a recovery from that.

Unfortunately, rebuy tourneys in the area are heavily slanted (as you've experienced) and a lot of people are scarred by them and therefore don't want to try them here.

Really, a rebuy tourney could be viewed as "instead of a $40 freezeout, we'll do a $20 with one rebuy allowed" equivilant... sort of.

[pfapfap]

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Lets say the structure is $20 buy in - T2000 / $20 rebuy - T2000 / $20 add on - T3000

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Hey, that's rather easy for me to say. Guess I can speak up here. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] It's all part of a balanced approach, which I'll attempt to describe.

Part of it is for increasing the pot, yes, but I want different "phases" of the tournament. With the sizable house fee for dinner and booze, I don't want people busting out and going home and not feeling like they got money's worth. Every rebuy in the prize pool makes the house fee less significant, which keeps people coming back. Every rebuy in the prize pool makes the next rebuy a better value, which keeps people rebuying.

Basically, the rebuy period is a "cash game", the winners of which get a boost going into the tournament proper, which is when the add-on happens and the antes start. The levels in the rebuy period start out a bit lower than our cash game equivalent, and end a little higher. People are comfortable and familiar with playing that way, so no real adjustment needed for the, er, less accomplished among us.

Okay, so that's the reasoning behind the rebuy, why the addon? Couldn't I simply adjust the blind structure to make it work the same without it? Well, yes and no. Since the last rounds of the rebuy period start putting pressure on all stacks (to encourage rebuys), even if I brought the post-addon levels down a bit, a lot of people would still bust out fairly quickly, which does seem to give an advantage to those with deep pockets. Once you factor in the add-on, you could easily play with the starting stack plus addon and be just fine going into the rest of the tourney, especially now that rebuys are at full stack or less, not at bustout. A bonus is that the looming add-on gives those with deep pockets even more encouragement to play fast and loose, as they have still yet more chips coming.

Another factor is simplifying the blind structure. I spent a long time working out a good balance, and with what I have now, I can jump to 100/200 blinds with 20 ante after the addon, which lends itself to a cleaner, simpler blind increase with easier and obvious points of coloring up. Fewer chips to figure out in blinds/raises and cleaner numbers as people get more drunk and stoned. On top of that, tournaments are fun with obscene numbers of chips. This helps with that, making them a special event, rather than just a bastardized cash game.

[ QUOTE ]
I assume almost everyone does the add on so why not just charge them more up front and increase the chip counts. Say $30 buy in - T2500 / $30 rebuy - T2500. Do the players just feel better paying $20 three times rather than $30 twice?

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Doing it all up front makes for a different sort of tournament. Everyone realizes the addon is part of the tournament price, but it's 60% of your stack protected against the fast and loose donkeys. Better players have more incentive to aggro it up and take advantage, leading to more rebuys, bigger prize pool, etc.

After a few tournaments when I saw that most people had adjusted and weren't doing more than one or two rebuys, I did throw out the idea of increasing the price of each, but limiting it to one rebuy and one addon. Nobody liked that at all. The tighter players of course wanted their same value, and the looser players wanted the ability to go all-in over and over with minimal risk. And since we almost always get one or two people who just crap out the rebuys, might as well let them.

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I also understand everyone likes a bigger prize pool but it's the players themselves that fund it. If I put out $50 for a chance to win $500 it's the same as putting out $100 to win $1000. Theoretically it's the better players that benefit. Do we all believe we're that "better player" so the whole rebuy / add on system benefits us by all the fish dumping in dead money?

[/ QUOTE ]
People play for different reasons. Not everybody understands odds and inflection points and all of that. I haven't delved into the minds of the endless rebuy players because I don't want to discourage them. In my tournaments, the same people tend to show up at the final table, with the occasional lucky donkey (intermittent reinforcement). Last night in the top seven finishers, four didn't rebuy at all, one did one rebuy mid-way through, and three started with a doublestack and no rebuy after that. This is not anomalous. In my league standings I do not post who did how many rebuys. Again, no reason to discourage it.

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Am I being to cycnical? It just seems with this structure I'm telling my players "It'll only cost you $20 to buy in initially but I've created a blind structure that will pretty much require you to cough up another $20 later if you want to compete. But before you get to that stage you also have to deal with the possibility of losing the chips I'm giving you now (which in effect is an insufficient amount unless you get real lucky) in which case you'll need to buy more (of the same insufficient level)"

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Eh, depends on your point of view. As I said, the starting stack is enough for most of the rebuy period, but we all have different playing styles, and it encourages the looser among us to pad the prize pool. Everybody knows about the addon, so nobody sees it as squeezing out more money. The buyin for my tournament is $40-$60 (depending on if you want a doublestack), you just don't get all the chips right away. And there's usually one or two people who don't do addons, so it allows those without the means to have a shot at a big prize. It's all very transparent and everybody knows what's going on.

You must also consider the boiling frog. Throw a frog into a pot of hot water and he'll jump out. Start him in a pot of cool water and slowly bring it to boil and he'll become cooked without argument. $20 at a time is more palatable than $60 up front, and poker is part psychology.

In the end, only a few of us really understand all the dynamics and, therefore, better strategies for it. Most the rest are here to gamble it up and play some POKER, and this lets 'em do it. A rebuy/addon tournament is certainly not the only way to play, but with my structure and time, it seems to work very well. It strikes a good balance between a true deep stack tournament and one that needs to end for most at a reasonable time, while keeping a prize pool worth playing for 'til 2am.

[Small Fry]

Thanks. I knew I could count on you.....

My tournaments are all now unlimited rebuys, used to be limited to 2 per person so I have adapted and get all that. I've just never done the big Add On thing

[Small Fry]

Thanks. Knew I could count on you too. Really appreciate the detailed explanation.

I totally agree with keeping players around so they "feel" they get value which is why I do the rebuy too. I've structured my blinds so even after the rebuy period ends there is still a round or three that players can last if they had to do a rebuy right at the end. I guess I'm more concerned with the perception that it might present to change it up.

I like some of the points you make. I think in the end I'm just going to have to give it a try and see what everyone thinks. Won't be the first time I've done something different.

And even if I end up being philosophically against it that doesn't mean I'm not going to come to your place still and do my best to win.....or eat and drink at least $20 worth....gotta get value when you can, right [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

BTW... how'd it go last night?

[Lottery Larry]

Okay, if you're going to make my answers look weak and pathetic in comparison.... AND you're going to make me look up freakin' words on a Friday night ("anony... anomay.... anomailageous..... fudge it! I can't even pronounce the damned word!"), then I'm going to have to put you on Ignore.

freakin' geek...

[Lottery Larry]

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Another factor is simplifying the blind structure. I spent a long time working out a good balance, and with what I have now, I can jump to 100/200 blinds with 20 ante after the addon, which lends itself to a cleaner, simpler blind increase with easier and obvious points of coloring up.

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100/200 with 20 ante? Why keep the reds hanging around? I did a quick search, didn't find your structure posted in the last few months.

Did you ever post your final rebuy structure (that you're bragging about here :P )??

Thanks
LL

[pfapfap]

Heh, sorry, man, I was actually typing mine up before your response was posted. We covered similar points. And I only know a few fiddy-cen' words, so let me use 'em where I can. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

My rebuy structure is right at the top of this post... Buyins T2k, Rebuys T2k, Addons T3k. Each are $20, and rebuys are at T2k or less. Before it was $30 for the initial buyin (rebuys and addons $20), and rebuy only when busto.

As to keeping the T20 chips hanging around (they're yellow now, not red), it's because antes are where it's at. I'd say at least half of the people here don't understand strategy differences with antes, so when I suddenly wake up and start making moves at pots, they get out of the way. Also helps make it feel more like an "event", as cash games have no antes.