99.9% sure I'm behind and facing Shove on Turn. Good Gambool?

[kendal14]

I am new to NL, and I am reading both of Ed Miller's(et. al)books. I apologize in advance if this hand is "standard" or too easy. I just sat down at the table and this is my 5th or 6th hand. The villian is 45.5/2.2/1.4 over only about 40-50 hands. Comments on all streets would be appreciated. Thanks!



Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $24.75
BB: $6.60
UTG: $30.45
MP: $17.95
CO: $16
BTN: $18.35

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, BTN folds, Hero calls $0.15, BB checks

Flop: ($1) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $0.70</font>, BB folds, MP calls $0.70, CO calls $0.70

Turn: ($3.10) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $17 and is All-In</font>, CO folds, Hero calls $15

River: ($37.10) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

[TheChad]

this is a std fold on the turn. up to that point is prob std. The thing with combo draws is that you want fold equity on top of it. You want to pick up some sort of weakness and then make the big bet (AI or not). That way, even if you are called, you have outs. Most of the time you just want to take it down with your big bet though. Against someone shoving on you, let it go. Unless of course your combo is a staight-flush draw. In that case, you want to induce any bluff/whatever and get their stack in with aces against your sfd. Then, ship it! yay!
does that make sense?

[kendal14]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a std fold on the turn. up to that point is prob std. The thing with combo draws is that you want fold equity on top of it. You want to pick up some sort of weakness and then make the big bet (AI or not). That way, even if you are called, you have outs. Most of the time you just want to take it down with your big bet though. Against someone shoving on you, let it go. Unless of course your combo is a staight-flush draw. In that case, you want to induce any bluff/whatever and get their stack in with aces against your sfd. Then, ship it! yay!
does that make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, this makes sense to me now. I am having a difficult time with the all-in decisions (even when I have a hand like TPTK) and it becomes more crowded when I have a big combo draw like this. Back to reading...

Still would appreciate other advice and thoughts.

[TheChad]

glad I could help. for the TPTK/overpair situations, look up the Baluga theorem. He wrote a good piece on those times.

[shyturtle27]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is a std fold on the turn. up to that point is prob std. The thing with combo draws is that you want fold equity on top of it. You want to pick up some sort of weakness and then make the big bet (AI or not). That way, even if you are called, you have outs. Most of the time you just want to take it down with your big bet though. Against someone shoving on you, let it go. Unless of course your combo is a staight-flush draw. In that case, you want to induce any bluff/whatever and get their stack in with aces against your sfd. Then, ship it! yay!
does that make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, this makes sense to me now. I am having a difficult time with the all-in decisions (even when I have a hand like TPTK) and it becomes more crowded when I have a big combo draw like this. Back to reading...

Still would appreciate other advice and thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the trouble then read Professional No-Limit Hold'em instead because it is based on planning hands around commitment. Insta-fold against this passive villian BTW.

[jerryf1914]

a combo draw on the turn sucks i don't think its a good idea to bet there.

try to get it all in on the flop when you have a combo draw, try to see the river as cheaply as possible when you miss on the turn.

[bozzer]

op, i assume you are aware of pot odds? as others have said this is a simple fold, but just for fun here's the way i work it out when i'm not playing

[(chance to win)*(total pot)] - (cost of action) = expected value

[x($37)] - $15 = ?

we want to make a profitable call, so we want to make more than $0 on the call.

x($37) - $15 = 0

37x = 15

x = 15/37 = 40%

there are simpler ways to do this at the table, but we'll leave that for now.

so it depends what you mean by being behind.

if he has 62 you have odds to call:

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&amp;h5=

obviously he's a lot stronger than that and our pair outs are most likely not good:

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&amp;h5=

try plugging in a sensible range for villain into the tool and see what equity your hand has against his range. you'll probably come out with 30-35% equity, so this is a fold, but it's actually a little closer than i expected.

[kendal14]

[ QUOTE ]
op, i assume you are aware of pot odds? as others have said this is a simple fold, but just for fun here's the way i work it out when i'm not playing

[(chance to win)*(total pot)] - (cost of action) = expected value

[x($37)] - $15 = ?

we want to make a profitable call, so we want to make more than $0 on the call.

x($37) - $15 = 0

37x = 15

x = 15/37 = 40%

there are simpler ways to do this at the table, but we'll leave that for now.

so it depends what you mean by being behind.

if he has 62 you have odds to call:

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&amp;h5=

obviously he's a lot stronger than that and our pair outs are most likely not good:

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&amp;h5=

try plugging in a sensible range for villain into the tool and see what equity your hand has against his range. you'll probably come out with 30-35% equity, so this is a fold, but it's actually a little closer than i expected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

Thank you for the post. I have played quite a bit of 6-max limit (over 100k hands) in the low-mid stakes and have done well (but this was about a year ago).

So I do understand pot odds, but I thought it was a lot closer to an easy call than an easy fold because the villian's range is SO wide (after the hand villians VPIP went up into the 50's).

In retrospect, if the action had happened on the flop it would be a shove from my end. I am currently reading Ed Miller's book and will be lurking and posting on this forum a lot. Thanks for the responses. Hope my next hand post is more interesting.