Exodus Story In Doubt

[andyfox]

Yahweh is indeed a vengeeful God; and, thinking about it, he does seem a fitting god for a people who had to pry a livelihood out of a harsh, unforgiving environment. They would indeed imagine a primordial time when life was Paradise.

[djames]

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I am glad to read that you must admit your assertion is without proof. I wonder then why you assert it with such conviction fooling many of your readers who don't catch it.


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Isn't it assumed that there is no proof? I mean, we are conducting thought experiments about alleged events set in the 1st century. Who (besides you) was fooled by this?

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Perhaps you're reading out of context. It is the quote below that was asserted as fact, which later was qualified to be based on DS's purely subjective point of view. If you weren't confused, or you couldn't see how others could be confused, good for you. Reading my posts you'll realize that I also was not confused.

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PS Please don't misinterpret the above. Just because lack of evidence is much more damning regarding the historical facts of exodus than the ressurection doesn't mean it is in any way less likely. Baye's Theorem. Its actually still a million times MORE likely since it postulates no miracles.

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[Peter666]

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The Egyptians never kept records of defeats, and did not keep accurate historical records until Hellenistic times. I think the Egyptians would have wanted to erase all traces of the Israelites as well.

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This is ridiculous. When power changed hands from one dynasty to another, doesn't that classify as a 'defeat'? There were over twenty-five separate dynasties, it wasn't all one ruling party. There is no question that defeats weren't celebrated, but we surely have evidence of these events.

And you're basically saying the following:

- the first-born of every Egyptian family died (along with other plagues)
- The Pharoah lost a vast number of slaves
- A whole race of people left Egypt and trekked to the 'Promised Land'
- The Israelites invaded a new land, displaced the people there, and occupied it

and all this happened without anybody from any of these groups of people creating any record that we can find today.

Even if the Egyptians sought to erase all record of these events, you're claiming that nobody found them noteworthy enough to record at the time.

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"This is ridiculous. When power changed hands from one dynasty to another, doesn't that classify as a 'defeat'? There were over twenty-five separate dynasties, it wasn't all one ruling party. There is no question that defeats weren't celebrated, but we surely have evidence of these events."

Why would you classify a dynasty change among Egyptians as a defeat? It is an acknowledged fact that the Egyptian Pharaohs covered up their losses, such as Ramses II against the Hittites. They would certainly do the same against the Hebrews.

"- the first-born of every Egyptian family died (along with other plagues)
- The Pharoah lost a vast number of slaves
- A whole race of people left Egypt and trekked to the 'Promised Land'
- The Israelites invaded a new land, displaced the people there, and occupied it

and all this happened without anybody from any of these groups of people creating any record that we can find today."

Well there is certainly one record, the Bible. Besides, I think you are blowing the scope of these events out of proportion. Famines and plagues were a regular part of ancient life. Every family losing a child is not that big a deal when compared to the regular infant mortality rate of the time.

Regardless, there hasn't been one iota of evidence to suggest that Exodus could not have taken place as recorded, and it is remarkable that a wandering tribe like the Israelites have a recorded history to begin with. How many other wandering tribes have an established history like the Hebrews?

[Subfallen]

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Yahweh is indeed a vengeful God

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And a paragon of pettiness to boot. It's like nobody has even read Job.

[Brad1970]

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Yahweh is indeed a vengeful God

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And a paragon of pettiness to boot. It's like nobody has even read Job.

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I've read it. Why don't you give us your take on it?

[Subfallen]

Well, we have the omnipotent and omniscient Yahweh. And we have His humble servant Job, a man honorably devoid of evil intent and unfaithfulness.

What happens next? Satan takes audience with Yahweh and insists that Job is only faithful because he has been blessed. Now, remember, Yahweh is omniscient so He knows that Satan's accusation is false. But, just for kicks, He still gives Satan permission to kill all Job's livestock, destroy his home, and murder his children. Who cares, it'll be a good show, right? Of course, Job remains faithful, so now Yahweh agrees to inflict His hapless servant with boils---you know, just to up the ante a bit, because, well, [censored] Job. What's he going to do?

Remain faithful, of course! But at this point poor Job does dare to ask why all this torment has been visited on him---him, the only man on earth without fault. And, eventually, Yahweh does show up. Does he explain why He allowed Job to be tested? Um, no. (Since He doesn't have any sort of reason besides, "Satan told me to.")

No. Yahweh instead thunders at Job, demanding why the poor fool is so impertinent as to expect Yahweh to be just or fair---or even to expect Yahweh to abide by His own commandments against murder. NO! YAHWEH DOES WHAT HE WANTS. BECAUSE HE CAN.

Pleasant fellow indeed. Pretty substandard morally speaking; and a real might-makes-right sort of jerk. But still a pleasant fellow all around, and He even proves it by giving Job new stuff and a new family. Yay.

[Brad1970]

You left out some parts.

Job was a righteous man in God's eyes. God used Job to teach the world (and Satan) what true spirituality was all about. He knew that Job could handle everything that Satan had in store for him, but he would not allow Satan to kill him. If God brings you to it, he'll see you through it.

Afterwards God blessed him with even more earthly riches than he had before plus more children, grandchildren, etc. He also lived for 140 more years.

If you were to take out the censored words, the heavy sarcasm, & did a bit of wordsmithing...your post might have some meaning to an unbeliever that had never heard of Job.

[Subfallen]

Yes, clearly it was necessary to subject Job to unimaginable physical and spiritual torment (and kill Job's children) just to make a point. About true spirituality. (No matter that it compromises any reasonable definition of justice or basic morality.)

Anyways, the point was apparently this: when you're God, you get to do ANYTHING YOU WANT. No, seriously, ANYTHING.

[Brad1970]

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Yes, clearly it was necessary to subject Job to unimaginable physical and spiritual torment (and kill Job's children) just to make a point. About true spirituality. (No matter that it compromises any reasonable definition of justice or basic morality.)

Anyways, the point was apparently this: when you're God, you get to do ANYTHING YOU WANT. No, seriously, ANYTHING.

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Guess so. But sometimes isn't 'anything' a means to an end?

[Subfallen]

And what exactly was the "end" here? Pandering to Satan to prove a moot point? Creating another opportunity for Yahweh to shock-and-awe one of his helpless creations who was dumb enough to expect something like justice from God?

Wonderful moral indeed. Edifying.