Stud 8- 3rd street/bring-in situations

[Acoplander1]

Alright, I'm new to Stud 8, but I've come to realize that playing any three cards 8 or lower and big pairs is NOT the way to win at this game.

I'll generally play 3 to a straight straight/flush and one gapper type low hands such as (34)5 and (A2)4 regardless of how many low door cards there are.

Suppose you have a two-gapper (24)6 starting hand, or something similar with very little high potential.

With 3's, 5's, or maybe several low door cards out, is it best to lean towards folding when you're acting early? How about once 2 or 3 people with low door cards come into the pot? What about when an ace raises and several lows come in?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is... Hands with not a lot of high potential like 1, 2-gappers or Ace with 2 low cards. How to play them? My take is that I'm competing for low with others and there is little chance for a quality high hand. Is it ever right to fold a (34)7 with many lows behind you or if many lows have called. How about Ace and 2 low cards, but 1 or 2 aces are already somebody's door cards... Unlikely to catch an ace at anytime (according to Todd Brunson), so not too much scooping potential.

How about with split kings or queens such as (K2)K with several low cards behind you (but no Ace)? How about when 2-3 low cards have called? How to play big pairs against 3 or 4 people going low?

It's a game of upcards, right? If I have 3 to a low, and 7 low door cards I need are out, I don't have 20 outs to catch another low, I have 13 outs... not worth playing, right?

Advise appreciated.

-Acoplander1

[getfunky]

You are on the right track to being a strong stud/8 player. You are asking the right questions. Hand values change dramatically based on live cards. Other important factors are the agressiveness of the table and the specific opponents you're up against in the hand.

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Is it ever right to fold a (34)7 with many lows behind you or if many lows have called.

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Absolutely! In an aggressive game where it often costs two full bets to see 4th, you should strongly consider folding with two aces yet to act even if all 5's and 6's were live. In a passive game you can come in early with a lot more hands. If others have already called and you think it will likely cost just the bi, you'll want to see 4th st. However, play it cautiously vs aggressive players on 4th should you catch a card other than an ace, 5 or 6. If a solid player limps with a wheel card and one or two of those key cards I mentioned are dead, you should be less eager to play.
[ QUOTE ]

How about Ace and 2 low cards, but 1 or 2 aces are already somebody's door cards

[/ QUOTE ] With two aces dead your hand is similar to a razz hand which can be played cheaply if it's drawing to a 75 low or better. If it's two suited it becomes a little stronger and even a dead ace has value against low hands because you might scoop with ak high and a nice low. Against a raise by a high hand and reraise by a low card, fo'gettaboutit!


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A How about with split kings or queens such as (K2)K with several low cards behind you (but no Ace)?
B How about when 2-3 low cards have called?
C How to play big pairs against 3 or 4 people going
low?

[/ QUOTE ] Ahh , the big pairs, the toughest hands in this game to play well. In example A it depends on the style of the table, if it's tight go ahead and raise, if it's loose muck your hand. In B if you are in late position, call and see what develops on 4th st. If only one player caught good , try to get heads up by c/r or bet out in hopes of being raised. If everyone catchs good, cya, wouldn't want to be ya, let it go .. also fold when facing a small door pair, a live ace, or a suited connector. You never want to play the big pairs against a crowd. In example C, don't bother if the bet was already completed.

[SacredChao]

High pairs below Aces are money losers. Frankly, I look for games where I see people playing high hands since those tables are the most profitable. They can be played under some circumstances, but if you are just beginning thowing away all pairs below aces may save you a great deal of money.
The exception is a pair with all cards below 8.

Remember that one of the concepts of all stud games is saving bets. Chasing is where you lose the most money.

Split pot games are about scooping. The most reliable way to scoop in stud 8 is to go for a low and backdoor the high. If you go for a high with no hope for a low what you are doing is hoping for all other hands to bust going for a low to scoop.

Thowing away three to a low with a lot of low door cards isn't right either......it's about dead cards. If you see a lot of low cards but the cards you need for a low are live then play it. Lots of bananas will be coming out to kill some of the low hands. If you catch 4 to a low and enough hands are killed....keep going. Of course looking out for someone with a better draw. Tossing out an 8 low to someone that looks like they have a better low is a good idea. Especially if you have no hope for a sraight, flush or two pair.

If you get a bannana on 4th street and someone else looks like they hit well, toss your hand. The exception would be to take one more if you feel your draw is better (potential wheel, straight or flush) to scoop. This all depends on dead cards too.

Split kings (or high pairs) are the most dangerous cards to play on a stud/8 table. Just because you see no Ace as a door card doesn't make it better. An ace falling on any low hand can make them a pair and you'd best be throwing your unimproved kings away. And even if you improve you will be facing potential straights and flushes from a freerolling low (even an 8 low) that will jam the pot knowing that you went for high. And you have to be careful for what may look like a banana but isn't necesarily. If a nine falls on a hand with a 6, 7, or 8 for door card they may have 4 to a straight.

Like I said.....I look for a table where people are playing high hands.....I love it.....I live for it.

Good rule of thumb.....never ever play a high pair against 3 or more lows.

And you are right about having seven dead cards. If everyone else comes in and especially if there is a raise and everyone comes in, toss em. Not worth the trouble. It doesn't happen that often.

[Andy B]

Get Ray Zee's book.

High pairs other than Aces can be trouble. Most folks in most games would be better off throwing them away.

I don't think I've ever tossed a three-card Six, but there are times when it is correct to do so. I will sometimes toss a three-card Seven, especially one without two-way potential. I think I toss more three-card Eights than I play.

[getfunky]

good points, yeah high pairs are dangerous but they are an important part of mxing up one's game- you do want to play buried pairs with baby doors so when you raise with a low str8 or flush draw good players can't pin down your hand. You also need to play split pairs on occassion so that your big trips are not transparent as well. of course in looser games you can muck any paired hand even aces with a big kicker when the situation warrants it. however, in looser games, if by some miracle you can gets heads up, then split pairs are very good hands because you'll often be facing razz hands and smaller pairs.

[SacredChao]

Yep....I agree with you there. Buried pair with a baby door is good as long as you know how to handle it. He said he was beginning though and until you learn a bit more with the low hands, the high pairs will kill you if you don't know when to give up on them. As far as big trips, hiding them isn't that big a deal, at least in the games I've played in. Even they can be dangerous if they don't complete to a full house against multiple lows. The danger comes from a freerolling low pumping the pot.

Overall, having a high hand heads up against another high is best.

If you are heads up playing against a low, you are moslty battling for the antes. If it's against a bad player he will try to draw to the river with bananas on 4th and 5th.

For both a good player and a bad player if he hits the low in 5 or 6 he's freerolling and you are on dangerous ground.
By the river you might be facing a backdoor straight or flush.....or a very well diguised baby full house.

If he's a good player first or second banana and he folds...two small bets and the antes.

The problem with big pairs is you have to play them when the right set of circumstances arise......number and apparent quality of lows....position.....etc, etc. And with a high door card you have to lead. It really takes a bit of experience to not lose that beautiful stack you took hours to accumulate in a few badly chosen high hands.

Although the proper play of big pairs can get you more.....thowing away all big pairs (above 8) except for aces with a baby won't hurt you much verses what you could lose playing them badly.

[pokerghost2]

what if i start beautiful like A23 or 234s against a player who started with a Q or K doorcard and its heads up on 4th but i catch some random brick like a J or 10? chuck it?

[Andy B]

With the suited cards I'll take one off. With A23 I might, especially if my opponent isn't very good.

Get Ray Zee's book.

[SacredChao]

This is one of those "it depends" scenarios. Remember that if there is no chance of scooping you are struggling for the 1/2 of the antes.

If he looked like he bricked too and you started with a 3 straight i'd take one more. If he paired his door card, got an ace or some other paint, or suited his door card and I bricked I'd fold.

An interesting 3 straight to go with is a 678. It disguises a potential brick.....the 9.

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
what if i start beautiful like A23 or 234s against a player who started with a Q or K doorcard and its heads up on 4th but i catch some random brick like a J or 10? chuck it?

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Any time I start with 3 flush 3 low and am only up against 1 obvious high hand I'm taking it to 5th street as long as they don't pair their door on 4th. Multiway pots with a bricked 3 flush 3 low I tread a bit more carefully on 4th, but barring catastrophe I'm usually seeing fifth. Two wheel cards+Ace depends on pot size/whether I have a 3 flush/liveness of the wheel cards I need and Aces.