Personality traits affect game (long)

[PoorTom]

great response to a reasoned, thoughful post.

give yourself an uppercut.

[JJNJustin]

In response to the last couple posts-

I wasnt trying to "universalize" human behavior in writing this thead. I am merely trying to organize or cluster typical behavioral patterns I see on a regular basis in poker games to underlying personality traits or emotions that make them easier to identify and understand.

I am not a psychologist and do not profess to be one.
To be totally frank, I find your statement that "the real personality traits are neuroticism, et. al." to be entirely irrelevant and missing the point of this entire thread. I never stated that the traits I listed were part of some kind of grand valid accepted schema accepted by the psychological community. The categories I used simply are traits, types, profiles, characteristics, or even emotions that are frequenty exhibited by people who play poker. I never tried to assert that they governed all of human behavior. Perhaps I should have substituted "bullfrog" for "rigid," or "adventurer" for "impulsive".

I play with players who exhibit these types of profiles everyday, one poster said one of my profiles describes him to a tee. This disproves the "illusory" statement, as I have never met this person, nor has he met me, and yet he can at least relate to the things I describe. I think the important thing here, is not that he is just one person, but that he can relate to everything described in one particular trait to a tee.

I have to think that you and perhaps that other gimmick account that responded negatively are perhaps someone responsible for the management of this website, and want to make sure that my writing isnt taken for fact or as an accepted viewpoint because of lack of data or whatever reason. It should be obvious to the reader that most discussion along these lines is going to be mostly speculative. That's all ever meant this thread to accomplish, promote some good discussion on the subject. I didnt mean to profess to be some kind of human psychological behavior authority, which I definitely am not. If anything it helped to clarify my thoughts on things lurking in my conscious.

-J

[PoorTom]

[ QUOTE ]

I play with players who exhibit these types of profiles everyday, one poster said one of my profiles describes him to a tee. This disproves the "illusory" statement, as I have never met this person, nor has he met me, and yet he can at least relate to the things I describe. I think the important thing here, is not that he is just one person, but that he can relate to everything described in one particular trait to a tee.


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It doesn't 'prove' or 'disprove' anything. It just means that you and one other person find this way of thinking about your opponents useful. That's fine, but don't take it for more than it is.

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I have to think that you and perhaps that other gimmick account that responded negatively are perhaps someone responsible for the management of this website, and want to make sure that my writing isnt taken for fact or as an accepted viewpoint because of lack of data or whatever reason.


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what the hell are you talking about? this is, like, some sort of paranoid delusion... chill brother.

[ QUOTE ]

It should be obvious to the reader that most discussion along these lines is going to be mostly speculative. That's all ever meant this thread to accomplish, promote some good discussion on the subject. I didnt mean to profess to be some kind of human psychological behavior authority, which I definitely am not. If anything it helped to clarify my thoughts on things lurking in my conscious.

-J

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fair enough. as i and others have already said, we value your effort and contribution. agreed, it's speculative either way. some have tried to point out some weaknesses and pitfalls with getting carried away with this approach. though you've reacted rather defensively to any critcisms, i'm sure the process of thinking though this has been useful for all.

[JJNJustin]

So you are saying no matter how evident these traits are in a particular person on a particular day, they are merely illusions and not reliable or accurate? I totally disagree.

Have you never played cards with someone who is so solid, inflexible, predictable, logical, and unemotional that you feel like you cant hardly win a dime off of them? A typical "grinder"? Or someone who is reckless, likes to gamble, craves excitement and seeks thrills? A typical "adventurer" or "gambler?" Someone who is dominant and aggressive, bets or raises at every opportunity and speaks in a loud voice, has this superiority complex, and is quick to anger when he loses? Someone who is so afraid to bet unless they have the nuts, constantly fearing monsters under the bed to the point of absurdity? Someone who is so inherently mean and malevolent that it seems as if they play totally out of spite for others and enjoy others losses more than their own wins? Someone who is so kind, sympathetic, and caring that they get in some kind of unnecessary moral dilema everytime they play a hand?

You have never seen people like this at the table? You are saying these are all illusions I have and project on to people?

The traits you listed such as "neuroticism" and "openness" are personality traits, however, I do not see any obvious effects or playing implications in a poker game from these types of traits, whereas the ones I listed almost always become incredibly obvious and relevant even after a short time.

I will give you some examples from people I play with every day:

Rigid- There is a guy in our casino who comes in the same time each morning, leaves the same time each day, whether winning or losing. He plays the same solid game every day, wears the same jacket and hat everyday. He always plays very tight and aggressive, very well, hardly ever tilts, and is considered one of the best players in Detroit by many. We have comped snacks, donuts, and sandwiches in the back and he always is going back there to get a drink or snack or whatever. He was playing a tournament one time and I was with him at the final table. He played 4 hands while I was at the table. He went all-in, showed down AA. Later, all-in, showed down AA. 3rd time all-in showed down AA. Last hand, all-in showed down AA. Didnt play a single other hand.

Impulsive- was a guy who loved to gamble, decent player, but very loose. Loved to call pre-flop raises with xx and show down some goofy hand. Drank alcohol and took vicadin at the same time. After he left the casino he used his winnings to go to strip bars or sleep with whores. He got addicted to internet poker, eventhough he wasnt winning. Loved action and huge capped pots. Played the biggest game that was spread at any time. Used to bring little funny gadgets and set them on his cards as lucky charms. One time someone bought him a poker book as a present, and after he lost a pot he threw it in the garbage can right at the table. Used to flirt with all the waitresses. He hated tight games and used to tell me, "Come on, blow the dust off them chips and get in a pot."

Dominant- young kid who always raises and 3-bets if he plays. He goes up and down like a yo-yo and mucks his cards angrily when TPTK gets beat. He has to leave the table every half hour to go smoke and cool down. He is always devaluing his opponents suckout with some comment like, "great 2-outer there." He usually dresses in baseball jerseys and hats.

timid- this older lady who plays low limit. She wont even bet good hands like TPTK. When she raises, she has two pair or better. She is always afraid of the nuts. One time I saw her check call the nuts?!? When she is in the pot everyone is scared of her because she could be sitting on something much better than her action is giving her credit for. Everytime she puts her chips in the pot she is afraid she is beat by something. Her voice is so quiet you have to lean over to hear what she is saying.

Malevolent- there was this guy who was so obnoxious he got barred from two Detroit casinos permanently. After being beaten in a hand by a 60ish quiet woman he said, "I'm going to get you you sick c---." He sold vicadin and other drugs to people. Once a guy owed me money and he offered to break his legs for half of the money. He frightened people at the game because he was kicked out of the casino many times for throwing things, starting fights, etc. He basically hated everyone.

benevolent- I would have to say me. Sometimes I miss bets and raises when I am heads-up with friends or people I like at the table. I constantly make small talk and socialize at the table. Most people like me. I feel like I have made so many friends in the poker room, sometimes it is hard for me to play correctly, although I tell myself not to let my sensitivity interfere with with is correct poker. I dont like playing heads-up or trapping players who are already losing or having a bad day because I have sympathy for them. I have strong objections towards rude or malevolent behavior.

You have never played with people like this? I do, every day. Perhaps at the higher limits you see less timid and malevolent types, as they wouldnt be too successful. At the lower and middle limits, however, you do all these particular types of people, and probably some other types, as well.

"Pigeonholing" or not, I find my system to be very reasonable and applicable, and stand by everything I have said.

-J

[JJNJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
great response to a reasoned, thoughful post.

give yourself an uppercut.

[/ QUOTE ]

give yourself an enema.

-J

[JJNJustin]

Even online cardrooms usually stereotypical avatars indicative of some of the personality traits I have described. Here are some screen shots with some descriptions. Some of the characters I couldnt really come up with anything, so I wrote something stupid or funny.





-J

[Jenslyn87]

This last part is just plain overanalyzing, I think [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The types in the poker rooms are just random "extravagant" types created to make the room appear more flashy. Also, big poker games are known to attract these kinds of types. Its simply a matter of duplicating reality, having fun and make the room look nice!

That's what I think anyway... But very cool post, I could see myself in it [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[pillsbarry]

man JJ, the discussion is interesting but geez is this what your thinking of when your playing 5/10?? I think the word overanalyzed came into this discussion somewhere. if you can process all that data at the table to decide to call, fold or raise then good luck. but i sat down with you for 5 minutes and i know you are a rock. i adjust my game to the players and the atmosphere of the game going on that very moment. I, unlike you, are unable to go down to the MC everday and grind out on the tables. i have few opportunities to go down, for usually only a few hours and i try to make the most of it from an entertainment value, for making money and for learning more about the game. you know these people who come down there, some arent that intuned to there psychy, some are down cause there on lunch hour, or just saw wsop re-runs. i play the cards, play the players go with the flow of the game. i mean if Q-2 is going to win, then i play it loudly and proudly until someone can knock me down. i usually get the table talking and when i am winning and i detect a shift in the game, i change gears and those people dont even know what gear they are in, let alone me. sometimes you should try to play for fun, and enjoyment. in the sense that you get to serious about it... you can still tear up a table and have everyone laughing at the same time. obviously you are a better player than most of the people in that room, i am just saying dont act like it. you wanna give off a mixed signal of what kind of player you are, start playing Q-2.

[phantom_lord]

What's the best way to take money off these two?

[ QUOTE ]
Rigid- There is a guy in our casino who comes in the same time each morning, leaves the same time each day, whether winning or losing. He plays the same solid game every day, wears the same jacket and hat everyday. He always plays very tight and aggressive, very well, hardly ever tilts, and is considered one of the best players in Detroit by many. We have comped snacks, donuts, and sandwiches in the back and he always is going back there to get a drink or snack or whatever. He was playing a tournament one time and I was with him at the final table. He played 4 hands while I was at the table. He went all-in, showed down AA. Later, all-in, showed down AA. 3rd time all-in showed down AA. Last hand, all-in showed down AA. Didnt play a single other hand.

Impulsive- was a guy who loved to gamble, decent player, but very loose. Loved to call pre-flop raises with xx and show down some goofy hand. Drank alcohol and took vicadin at the same time. After he left the casino he used his winnings to go to strip bars or sleep with whores. He got addicted to internet poker, eventhough he wasnt winning. Loved action and huge capped pots. Played the biggest game that was spread at any time. Used to bring little funny gadgets and set them on his cards as lucky charms. One time someone bought him a poker book as a present, and after he lost a pot he threw it in the garbage can right at the table. Used to flirt with all the waitresses. He hated tight games and used to tell me, "Come on, blow the dust off them chips and get in a pot."

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[DanPoker]

Thanks for this thread!

I am enrolled in a class right now, Introduction to Psychology of Personality. (PSY 242 at Purdue University, if anyone cares). You've covered the parts of the class that are related to poker really well. It is great to have explanations for why we have 'feelings' about how players will act, and then verifying, or reevaluating those feelings as time progresses. I'm busy studying for an exam tomorrow, so I'm going to be short, but the class (much like this thread) have reiterated why I dress and act in a manner that is not really me at a poker table, much like you said. My style is more slovenly though - underdressing and attempting to appear as young as possible. Verbally, I babble at the table, and have found that many players view me as an idiot for quite a while, until I've turned over too many 'tight' player hands.

Thanks again!