one of those nice but non nuts hands...

Olrik · #1 10-22-2007, 09:21 PM

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Omaha/8 (8 handed) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero caps, SB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

am i the only one who gets scared a lil after the turn donk? i figured the river didnt really help me even tho it made me a FH (unless he has another A7).

villian is a 50/10.

comments on all streets appreciated.

GaZaZaZa · #2 10-22-2007, 10:21 PM

i play it exactly like you do, except i probably end up capping that pf.

After you cap the flop and he still donks to you on the turn, one cant help but putting him on something like a-7-2-x, or a set of queens or kings, esepcially given how much strength you;ve shown throughout the hand. unless you have a read that the guy is a donk i would call and call, if he is a donk, sure gamble give the river and riase, only problem in general with raising this, is you hate to see a three bet on the double bet rounds, cause then there really is nothing your ahead off, but u still have to pay off.

jlocdog · #3 10-23-2007, 12:45 AM

"i play it exactly like you do, except i probably end up capping that pf."

Wrote this practically verbatim before I noticed it was spoken....

Buzz · #4 10-23-2007, 01:12 AM

Hi Olrik - Fine.

Once SB 3-bets the flop and BB folds, you have to wonder if SB has a full house.

If you wanted SB to check the turn, so as to possibly get a free card, then 4-bet on the second betting round.

But you don't really want SB to check the turn, because if SB does check the turn, then you're not sure what to do. (Do you check and take the free card, or bet into a possible check raise?)

It's a moot point because you 4-bet and SB bets the turn anyhow.

At that point it looks very much as though SB has QQXY or Q7XY.But with 9 small bets already in the pot from each of the first two betting rounds plus the two big bets you expect SB to put in the pot on the next two betting rounds, you're getting 11 to 2 or 5.5 to 1 implied pot odds to call the last two bets. You only have 3/44 ways to improve substantially on the river (an ace or a seven).

[ QUOTE ]
i figured the river didnt really help me even tho it made me a FH (unless he has another A7).

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. In case Villain also has A7XY, the six is good for you, and the six also is good for you because it prevents Villain from making a full house if Villain doesn't have a full house already.

At any rate no significant suggestions. I would not have made it four bets on the second betting round, but that's no big deal and of course is actually better for you if Villain doesn't already have a full house. I think Villain probably has a full house, but I think the probability he doesn't have a full house is greater than 2/11. Therefore calling it down on the turn and river is fine.

Thanks for your kind compliment on the magazine forum regarding the post flop article series.

Buzz

Olrik · #5 10-23-2007, 09:29 AM

is this hand really worth capping preflop? we have rather limited low potential and its not like the cap would give us any fold equity on the flop.

Buzz · #6 10-23-2007, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
is this hand really worth capping preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]No.

Buzz

Kirby99 · #7 10-29-2007, 05:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Once SB 3-bets the flop and BB folds, you have to wonder if SB has a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi. Trying to learn this game. How can the small blind have a full house here on the flop. What hand does he 3 bet with preflop that contains QQ. Seems pretty bad, am I wrong? I guess this is .50/1.00 they could probly have anything. I agree that just calling the turn donk is correct, but why should we believe this guy flopped a full house?

Buzz · #8 10-29-2007, 07:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What hand does he 3 bet with preflop that contains QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Kirby - QQYZ?

Some players raise with specific hands before the flop. AAXY and A2XY are favorites. Someone else might like to raise with all picture cards or A45Y.

But some players simply like to jam before the flop. And they'll jam with seemingly almost anything.

I think some of them just get a thrill out of raising. Others may feel powerful. Others may enjoy being a bully or creating discomfort for their opponents. Others play as aggressively as possible because they think it gives them an edge. Others do it because they think it shows they have guts. Whatever.

At any rate, unless I know better, I don't put someone who goes crazy and gives a lot of action before the flop on any particular cards.

But after the flop, common sense should, and usually does, set in. I give more credibility to 3-bets after the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
How can the small blind have a full house here on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]I follow your card logic, but I don't think card logic necessarily applies to the first betting round. Maybe it does, but maybe psychological logic makes more sense. But then on the second betting round, card logic should begin to kick in.

[ QUOTE ]
Seems pretty bad, am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]It may be a style of play, more based on psychology than cards. I've had some opponents who are quite good at it.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess this is .50/1.00 they could probly have anything.

[/ QUOTE ]It's not the limits. This happens at all limits. I imagine there's more of it at low limits, because you tend to go bust playing Omaha-8 like a wild man.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that just calling the turn donk is correct, but why should we believe this guy flopped a full house?

[/ QUOTE ]Because if we don't and he does have a full house we get clobbered.

But that's misleading. If we truly believed he had a full house, then we'd fold. However, we call in case he doesn't.

We neither believe he has a full house not that he doesn't have a full house. We play so that if he doesn't, then we'll collect, and if he does, we'll minimize out loss.

We try to figure the odds that he does and then we try to optimize our play according to those odds. Because of the money already in the pot we get better odds than because of fresh money.

In other words, the pot can be of such a size that we have favorable odds to call, but we don't get a good enough return on fresh money invested to have favorable odds to raise.

That's the explanation. However, I'm not sure I've explained it well enough for you to understand it.

Buzz

howzit · #9 10-29-2007, 06:04 PM

i'm assuming 50/10 means very loose and aggressive.

a sick sick line is raise/fold river. (i once saw ted forrest do this in a live stud hi game with open aces) but usually i go to showdown here.